I'm torn between saying 1) that Blizzard shouldn't just try to make an in-game carbon copy of discord, and 2) that they need to be more like discord
It's confusing when they're trying to basically copy discord but making a worse version of it. Either add the good features of discord or don't try to be like discord. Do one of the two!
While I had that first knee-jerk reaction questioning how far Blizzard should go in regards to copying other programs, I came to a specific conclusion.
My initial reaction is "Why as a player would I stop using Discord. The answer was I would not". However when it comes to management of groups, the guild system operates like a very basic Discord system.
Ranks in the old system were isolated (could not inherit permissions and could not use multiple associations to multiple characters). In the new system they are utilizing a "workflow" that is synchronous with many chat client (Discord, Twitch, Teamspeak).
These systems drive internal politics in these groups. Some groups are going to specialize in different role based systems. For instance an RP guild will have different role needs compared to a hardcore Mythic progression guild.
The old system does not offer opportunity to define these structures. This is where Discord is succeeding because they make no assumptions on how a guild master and its community wants to interact with social structures. World of Warcraft could definitely benefit with a less aggressive guild structure oversight.
07/22/2018 09:04 PMPosted by
Jareff
Ranks in the old system were isolated (could not inherit permissions and could not use multiple associations to multiple characters). In the new system they are utilizing a "workflow" that is synchronous with many chat client (Discord, Twitch, Teamspeak).
These systems drive internal politics in these groups. Some groups are going to specialize in different role based systems. For instance an RP guild will have different role needs compared to a hardcore Mythic progression guild.
The old system does not offer opportunity to define these structures. This is where Discord is succeeding because they make no assumptions on how a guild master and its community wants to interact with social structures. World of Warcraft could definitely benefit with a less aggressive guild structure oversight.
I find these arguments a bit vague, so I'll make my points with no assumptions on your post.
Discord offers a great deal of customization. I have players in my guild discord with the "To Blame" tag, because it's an in-game harmless (and even self-perpetuating) meme to blame them for stuff. The rank itself does nothing, but it's fun to have the option to assign it to people as a joke (yes, it's also assigned to the guild leader-- me). I also have several other useful roles on discord including @Dreamscythe, the raider tag (who have access to the raid channel). To be able to have this sort of customization sounds fantastic, and I encourage Blizzard to continue in this approach!
However, we're both a mythic-oriented guild and a guild who wants social members to feel welcome and able to join in on alt-or-social runs. I don't think any of the casual players should be given the power to remove a raider from the guild over a minor dispute, but I do feel as if they should be able to tell people who their alts belong to when they get them added them to the guild. My main issue with all of these changes will always lie in the consolidation of all of what Blizzard considers "officer" powers.
That's what needs to be fixed.
[quote]
... World of Warcraft could definitely benefit with a less aggressive guild structure oversight.
I completely disagree. Guild leadership is not an easy task, especially in large and active guilds. RP Guilds and raid guilds in particular require numerous and many guild events to be posted on the calendar, and this now needs to go though an officer rank. It makes no sense that those rights can't be individually delegated out to member ranks without also making that rank an officer with the ability to censor guild chat logs and boot members from voice chat.
The issue here is that this change has happened to guilds that have been around and structured since the beginning, and it's forcing leadership to make decisions against how their groups have been structured. This is causing divides, because players that aren't trusted with the whole array of what is now "is officer" permission, now get all permissions or no permissions.
The change to guild structure was undocumented, and unannounced. We should be getting empowered to make more choice, not less, and Blizzard should be telling us in advance when major guild structure changes are occurring.
@Hathlo To clarify I am saying the same as you. That line you quoted was meant to convey that I think as a guild master should delegate the rank structure to how they see fit. That means even not limiting ranks to just 10 ranks or a catch all permission set. That is what I meant about Blizzard "less aggressive guild structure oversight." The rank hierarchy and permission structure needs to be more flexible, not less.
I think from the previous two posts, either through my green text or general approach to the subject to describe differences between Discord and World of Warcraft's community implementation, are misconstruing that I am white knighting Blizzards choice. I am absolutely NOT agreeing with Blizzard here and know they can do better. They have done better. The guild permission system has created real problems for guilds, including my own. I want to see World of Warcraft successful like everyone else.
07/22/2018 11:39 PMPosted by
Jareff
@Hathlo To clarify I am saying the same as you. That line you quoted was meant to convey that I think as a guild master should delegate the rank structure to how they see fit. That means even not limiting ranks to just 10 ranks or a catch all permission set. That is what I meant about Blizzard "less aggressive guild structure oversight." The rank hierarchy and permission structure needs to be more flexible, not less.
I think from the previous two posts, either through my green text or general approach to the subject to describe differences between Discord and World of Warcraft's community implementation, are misconstruing that I am white knighting Blizzards choice. I am absolutely NOT agreeing with Blizzard here and know they can do better. They have done better. The guild permission system has created real problems for guilds, including my own. I want to see World of Warcraft successful like everyone else.
Sir/madam, my mistake. Thank you for the clarification!
07/22/2018 08:08 PMPosted by
Jareff
A Discord like role based system where multiple roles could be assigned to one character is the way to go. It would overhaul the rank system to allow the old way for how ranks use to function while upgrading to a newer standard.
Look how Discord role permissions are set up and literally introduce a system that operates the same way. It also allows you to maintain a hierarchy system (rank 1 is higher than rank 2 is higher than rank 3 ect). This would integrate the legacy system into the more modern rule-set communities is trying to convey.
I think ranks should only dictate blanket permissions for guild bank access, repair amounts etc, And roles should dictate administrative functions and we would be good to go so I can give permissions to someones main without having them blanketed across that entire tank. I don't think it should be an all or nothing check box for any of it. Especially with regards to the ability to modify chat logs or manage voice chat.
It would also be nice if something like a "Notes to the guildmaster" type function were added so guildies could have a ticket like system that gave us a report on 1 screen. I understand this may sound trivial but getting suggestions through in game mail (especially on alts) gets cumbersome and tough to keep track of 10 million "plain letters" all look the same when your trying to find the one you want. This way we can review it clear it and move on.
R.I.P. Guilds. As a GM, I could not even be bothered any more. A list of names, that's it. I can't tell at an overall glance who has gone AWOL = demotion, how long they have been a active member = up for promotion. And that's just the start. I'll stop before I really rant. To hell with my guild now, not interested.
07/17/2018 01:14 PMPosted by
Zero
slowly every change whittles wow down to the simplicity of a mobile game
And the grand agenda is revealed!
Daily bump, i will continue to do this till the end of time until they revert this garbage change.
Blizzard i am saying this directly to you, if you think we are going anywhere you are wrong. If you think we are going to take this lying down, you are wrong. If you think anyone wanted these permissions changes, you are wrong.
I will fight for our rights as GM's to run OUR guilds how WE want to not you!
I concur with all of this. I am not an officer of my guild, but I have been raid leading as well as recruiting quite a bit and the changes have obviously made doing either difficult.
First, our calendar went poof, but NOW I can't even create a guild event anymore, it seems only the officers can do so. Our GM had a system in place, but blizz has once again screwed the collective pooch.
Please change it back!!
yeah, there's been quite a buzz about this.
I swear, if there's one thing this game really needed it was better guild support
this decimates it
it's like some group of devs is deliberately trying to fack with guilds (maybe some kind of revenge fack because they were gkicked once) to give this communities thing a jumpstart
very messed up, it can't be accidental, can it?
I mean ... guilds, that's the core base of the game. sure a lot of random people play here and there but it's in a larger context and that context is guilds and "real raiding". guilds are both the scenery and social foundation of the game.
who the f. knows.
wasn't a good idea.
1 Like
Since we can still open the old guild ui via /guildroster, I'm hoping that someone makes an addon that replaces the awful communities window with the old one.
If you think anyone wanted these permissions changes, you are wrong.
We love your game and we love our guilds. Come talk to us. Communicate. Tell us why you made these changes, what you hoped to accomplish. I know you can. you worked with the creators of the RP addons to make our community better. Don't ignore this.
Hoping to keep this topic alive...
It seems like a lot of the decisions lately have been to save us from having to make decisions ourselves as if that is a bad thing. Still, I'll remain silent on those things here as we'll learn to adapt as always. Most of those things have their advocates anyway.
This guild permissions thing however will ruin structures people have had for a decade at times for absolutely zero benefit. NOBODY is saying, "Thanks, Blizz. Being able to just check 'is officer' has made my life so much better! I just couldn't understand who to allow to edit the public note on my own!".
With as argumentative as this community is at times, it should be a giant red flag to Blizzard that there is no group arguing to keep this change or defend it.
I hope they have read this. They need to revert this change.
In our guild we gave everyone the ability to add events to the calendar so that members would feel empowered to create their own RP or WPVP events, it's really crummy that that's no longer an option without giving all permissions. I also hate that members can't change their public note to mark alts. I can understand a consolidated rank for communities but it should have been left alone for guilds.
07/23/2018 06:56 AMPosted by
Aeriara
In our guild we gave everyone the ability to add events to the calendar so that members would feel empowered to create their own RP or WPVP events
This. This is SO IMPORTANT!
I don't think we have enough upvotes for attention yet. :( Can we get some more?
/dailybump
Give everyone the chance to make events. Put in rules not to post on the same day as other people. Have an active guild. Much fun for all!