The new Guild UI and Permissions...yikes (Part 1)

Community General Discussion
3305

I remember when when we really could have expected devs to put some kind of whimsy like this in the game. Now it seems like it’s all nose to the grindstone–both in the game and at Blizzard.

Looking at the news about them dropping a game that was in development more than two years, I’m again starting to have doubts about our problem ever getting fixed. I feel like Ion just said they were working on it to placate us. They were working on a Starcraft FPS, too, and look what happened to that.

I try to maintain my optimism, but some days it’s just too damn hard.

Brighten my world a bit, Blizz. Fix the permissions.

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3306

No worries! Tin foil bends and tears easily, so the hats can go around or over the horns without any problems.

I didn’t know I wanted this until I read it. But now I REALLY want it a lot…even more than feathers. It could involve a semi-insane quest giver who skulks in dark corners and only wears one sock, old gods whispering riddles, and everyone gets a hat at the end no matter what armor type.

I also have this really odd feeling that it should include some epistemology and discussions about what it means to KNOW anything. But that’s probably unrelated to the missing sock.

This sounds like a really fun guild activity, actually. And then we can have a photo op showing off our new hats.

/hugs I’m right there with you, Fumel. It’s not easy, but you’re a champion because you keep going.

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3307

Now you’ve done it.

I don’t just want a tin foil hat…

I NEED one…

For…

Reasons…

Fumel

I for one want you to know how highly I think of you and your efforts to keep this thread alive and well.

As I’ve said, I don’t post here as often as I once did because I have pretty much said it all (and more than once at that)

However, I check this thread at least a couple of times a day.

I will continue to lurk about this thread (perhaps in a shiny new tinfoil hat even) and post once every week or so to let Blizzard know that I am a woman of my word.

Because as I told them at the start of this thread:

I’m not going anywhere.

At least not until they

Fix the permissions Blizz.

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3308

I love this so much!

Tinfoil hats and fixed guild permissions, please.

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3309

Here’s me quoting another post from the Redux thread. Since that one is read-only now, this seems to be the only way quote those posts:

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3310

Psst…Hey Bliz.

You know what would be cool for E3?

Slipping in “Guild controls have been reverted to their pre BfA functionality” into the PTR notes.

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3311

Nice long maintenance you’ve got there, friends… Plenty of time to slip those guild permissions back in to the game…

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3312

Don’t we wish. :expressionless:

Does anyone know if there are any changes to the guild UI on the PTR? If not, I guess Ion has just been jerking us around whenever he claims they’re “working on it.” This is beyond upsetting.

Dude, you don’t need more feedback. Just fix the permissions. That’s the priority.

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3313

*For starters. Anything else could wait. And maybe be tested before going live. By guild leaders, perhaps. There are several other ideas that could be great for guilds, here, but none of them really matter if this basic function isn’t in place again first.

It’d be like breaking your arm and not setting the bone- sure, your bone can heal, but now you’ve got a weirdly-angled humerus and can’t really do pullups or carry a bag of groceries…

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3314

Bliz:

The only thing I have found amusing about these dumbed-down guild controls is that for the first time in 10 years of marriage when I asked my wife “What’s wrong?” She actually answered me with a complete rundown on how she can no longer control the guild instead of shrugging and saying “nothing, I’m fine.”

So now lets get that PTR updated with the fix!

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3315

^1000x this.

I personally love the great ideas for guild improvements that have been suggested throughout this thread. But we need our basic functionality back first.

We’ve been told that the devs understand why we have a problem with the change in guild permissions. That’s great. However, the continued silence regarding any sort of fix does make one wonder if they truly do understand the issue.

We need granular permissions so we can assign various tasks to various guild members as befits our various guilds. Everything else mentioned in this thread is icing. First, we need the cake (granular permissions).

We’re told our problem is understood, and yet we’ve gone eleven months with no fix in sight. I’m beginning to wonder if the reason is because Blizzard really doesn’t have people with the needed skills anymore. Is the once vaunted gaming powerhouse now a has-been? Is there really no hope for either guilds or WoW?

If so, I’m very disappointed. It didn’t have to be this way, but it really looks like someone up top has killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.

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3316

Classic

In my opinion all Blizzard’s efforts are invested in Classic. At least at this time.

Unless there is a major miracle with Retail Wow soon, we’ll be setting up shop there in August.

At least on Classic, although they may not be quite what we all came to know, guilds wont be borked.

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3317

I wish you luck. I’m not really interested in Classic, except maybe as a tourist to revisit the zones that were destroyed in Cata (and to say “hi” to the NPC’s that got killed).

Actually, the talk of a level squish has made me think this game isn’t for me anymore. They’ve taken away just about everything else I enjoy, now they want to take away my levels. (This is not my main, BTW. I do have 120’s.) If they go through with the squish, that’ll probably be the last straw for me. I feel like everything I’ve done doesn’t matter. They might as well take away achievements while they’re at it.

This guild mess is just another symptom of the rot that’s taken over Blizzard. The current team doesn’t seem to have any idea what an MMORPG is. They destroy guilds, they destroy travel, they destroy game play, they destroy progression–they pretty much destroy any aspect of the game they try to “improve”.

I understand the lure of Classic. That’s WoW in its infant form, before the current devs got hold of it. So, again, good luck and godspeed you and your guild in your Classic adventuring.

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3318

Let’s be honest here for a moment, even if they brought back all the permissions, guilds are still near worthless. There is almost no reason to even join a guild and be an active member unless you’re a progression mythic raider. Focus has been taken away from teamwork in this game, for the most part. Most everything in the game is a “me, me, me” thing, not a guild or team thing anymore.

Guilds will have meaning again in classic, they will never have meaning in retail again. Guilds in classic will be very important due to having server communities again. Server communities build guilds just as much as guilds build server communities, the two work hand and hand. Without one the other suffers horribly.

Edit - I want to clarify that I do wish guilds still had meaning, I was a long time GM and it saddens me that it has come to this.

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3319

Well said. I could not agree more.

Thank you Fumel.

I’ve not given up on retail completely, though much like yourself I feel the current game is no longer the Wow I’ve called my home away from home since late in mid-Vanilla.

I can’t see at this point how they can pull this mess out of the fire.

I was lucky enough to get to try out the Beta stress test and level two toons up to level 5 (the level cap they gave us).

In that short time, I saw the Wow community of “old” again. The game was fun, the players friendly and helpful, and it was surprisingly fresh.

I hope Blizzard can learn something from Classic, as in my personal opinion it’s going to be much more popular than many have given it credit for.

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3320

I believe Classic will definitely be popular. I have enormous doubts about Blizzard learning anything from it. We’re talking about the company that created WoW in the first place and still managed to turn it into the mess we have now.

It’s different people working there now, and they appear to be completely clueless. They don’t seem to have any idea what truly made WoW so popular to begin with. It seems like there’s no-one working in game design and development at Blizzard who’s been there as long as many players have been playing WoW–not to mention the original Warcraft games.

If they really knew what they were doing, they wouldn’t have screwed up guilds to begin with, or they would have at least made fixing them a priority. Since they clearly don’t give a flying fish about our problem (despite their many assurances to the contrary), I have zero faith that any good lessons will be learned. At this point, I’ll be surprised if they don’t somehow find a way to screw up Classic, to be honest.

Edit: Sorry for being such a Debbie Downer, but I feel like lately every single thing I hear from Blizzard about the game is bad news. The level squish has really broken me. I think I’m only still here because I can’t bring myself to believe they’re really going to do it.

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3321

Despite Blizzard’s lack of action, and my reluctance to recruit with permissions being the way they are, my guild has been growing a bit lately. People have been inviting their friends. Which is totally fine, I don’t have a problem with that.

We had someone new come to our raid for the first time yesterday. After the raid, we were putting together some m+ cache runs. We do this thing where we take keys we have and ignore the timer just to get weekly caches for as many people as we can. The new person was so excited to get in a dungeon group, and we were happy to make sure they had a spot.

It was their first m+ ever, and at the top tier item level of 375, we plopped them directly into a +14 Motherlode - fortified, bolstering, skittish, reaping. Now, we don’t do carries. We expect people to participate, do the mechanics, and help as much as they are able with their gear. But we did warn them that death would be a thing that happens, and we don’t care about the timer. We talk them through the fights over Discord, and the idea is that by the end of the run, they will know the dungeon a heck of a lot better than they did going in.

With a mix of alts, off specs, mains, and our trusty noob in tow, it took one hour and twelve minutes to clear the dungeon, a mere 33 minutes over the timer. Pretty dang good time, imo.

This is so much more fulfilling than any time I’ve +2 or +3 a key. Presenting a challenge, struggling a bit, working together to rise to the occasion, and ultimately completing the challenge…that’s good gameplay. And having the pleasure of introducing someone new to something they haven’t tried before? That’s just the cherry on top of the icing. And yet, according to a great many players, this is a failure of a run.

Why does the game not nudge people towards this type of cooperative gameplay? Why does it reward the assumption that “this group can’t do this dungeon” leading people to abandon the group after the first wipe? Even though we choose to not care about the timer, it does feel like the game is punishing us by downranking the key. It’s like the game is saying “You’re not good enough even though you rose to the challenge and finished the dungeon.”

Frankly, if I wasn’t in a position to tell others that it’s okay to abandon the rules the game presents and all of the community perception around M+, I probably wouldn’t do them myself. (I often say RIO is for the weak.) Some people see speed as the main challenge. I disagree. Finishing the journey should be the main challenge.

The runs where I have the most fun are rarely the ones where we beat the timer. I have the most fun when it takes an hour or two, but we work hard and get there in the end. The journey and that sweet sweet Tuesday loot make it all worthwhile.

Blizzard, please revitalize guilds and encourage cooperative gameplay. It really is the glue that holds this game together.

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3322

You are so right, and your story made me feel better than I’ve felt in a while. It’s nice to know there are still folks who play for the sheer fun of it.

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3323

Thanks! I’m glad it helped cheer you up. :hugs:

I feel like it’s a bit stream of consciousness lol. I’ve been trying to gather my thoughts about m+ for a while now. I started watching the Twitch stream of some game designers, and it’s opening up my thinking to the ways in which game design impacts community connections, toxicity, teamwork, etc. They say a little knowledge is dangerous. Well, I’m now dangerous. :smirk:

I’m still gathering my thoughts, but I’ve started to realize that the timer is a big, big problem in the design from a community perspective. It leads very directly to the “on ramp” being overly punishing, especially for pugs. Hence the mindset of “I believe you can do it. But I don’t want you learning in my run.”

That’s not to say that there’s anything wrong with speedrunning. There isn’t - it’s a perfectly valid game mode for those that choose it. But I’m becoming increasingly convinced that Blizzard needs to implement a companion progression system in mythic dungeons. One that doesn’t have the timer and one that is designed to be INCLUSIVE rather than EXCLUSIVE. Unfortunately, even the way we do it requires a certain amount of exclusivity. To be inclusive for our cache runs, we MUST be exclusive on key pushing.

Guilds and everything community-driven that we’re fighting for in this thread require inclusive gameplay. And that’s a design area where Blizzard has been lackluster for a very long time. And what the game itself punishes a little, the players kick up to 11. I’m not saying that Blizzard is responsible for the reactions of the players. Only that Blizzard sets the stage with design choices. IMO, the stage needs to be reset.

I want to be able to run my guild. (Give me permissions, yo!) I want m+ to be more inclusive by design - with an alternate untimed mode if necessary. I want the expectation of toxicity to become an expectation of kindness. (I know. I’m so demanding.)

I feel privileged because, not only do I HAVE a group of people to play with in the first place, but my guild also stumbled into a way of playing differently from the norm. And it turns out, it works really really well. Nearly everyone that we introduce into m+ loves it, runs with the guild a few times, and then attempts to pug, returns to guild runs, and never tries to pug them again.

This shouldn’t be what privilege looks like. It should be normal.

And give us permissions too.

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3324

Everything in your post is spot on, but I want to highlight this little bit because it’s the heart of the matter.

Guilds are how we build the community so many are lamenting doesn’t exist any more. The community is what made WoW the powerhouse it was. Everything else the devs do to try to “bring back the magic” won’t work if they don’t also give aid and support to guilds.

We need our permissions separated so that each guild can be managed in a way that best fits that guild. How your guild does mythics is a perfect example of why everything can be better when we’re not strapped into a straight-jacket that allows only one style of play.

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