So now we’re at Azeroth being hooked up to Titan facilities for millenia and not being born a Titan absent any concrete evidence or examples that point to that as even a possibility?
It doesn’t mean he did anything more than say yes when someone came to him with the pitch. We don’t know if any part of it came from him.
Because I was making a specific point that I don’t think you are getting. Let me try again.
You can absolutely blame him for a story you feel is bad. That is 100% fair. The final product was (during his tenure) ultimately his responsibility. But that is not was you are doing. You are not claiming he was bad because the story was bad, you are claiming the story is bad because you think he was the writer.
You can judge a story and then blame the one overseeing it. That is fair.
It is not fair to decide a story is bad just because he was involved.
The chart represented the various cosmic forces and who was most tied to that force. It was not exclusive.
In fact, quite the opposite. The center, our character’s reality, is influenced by ALL forces. Meaning anyone in the center, which would included World Souls, could potentially have access to and be imbued by any of the cosmic forces.
It is kind of like all thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs. All the Titans (at least in the pantheon) are Arcane imbued, but not all beings that are imbued with Arcane are necessarily Titans. Being imbued with Arcane does not equal automatically a Titan.
Possible.
Also remember, up to this point all World Souls have been either killed or became Titans. The Titans think all World Souls are nascent Titans. What else would people call Argus? The Titans we were with considered him a corrupted Titan. So, it is natural everyone would call him a Titan.
It looks like the story they are telling is that Azeroth was resisting it. Changing the Earthen to try and stop it being an example. Either because of how strong she was, more awareness, or just all the different cosmic forces trying to influence balancing things, etc., she is potentially becoming something different than any other world soul.
That is kind of the point of the story. They have reiterated over and over that Azeroth is special, unique. And, notably, that Azeroth is unique story has been in the story for most of WoW’s history. That was the whole reason the Burning Legion was so interested in the world. While there has been more detail and the name “Prime World Soul” added recently, the Azeroth is special narrative is not new.
Why are we spinning off into “everything we’ve personally witnessed is wrong” instead of Azeroth not wanting to be a Titan made in Aman’Thul’s image? The simpler explanation that tracks with what we’ve seen is that Titans are susceptible to influence, rather than Order + Worldsoul = Titan.
It might be due to Blizzard turning Arcane magic into a magical form of Mathematics. Mathematics is quite orderly so to speak. There are laws, theorems, axioms etc that have to be followed.
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At least according to our understanding of physics anyway. But than again, physicists are always finding anomalies that don’t follow our understanding of how things are supposed to work.
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Arcane is no fel and fel is real chaos
Well, the story Blizzard seems to be telling is that World Soul + Titan influence = Titan. They have dropped some rather not subtle hints that Azeroth is not actually a Titan. There is likely a reason. We are discussing what that means. As, if Azeroth is not a Titan it calls into question things we thought about World Souls and Titans.
The first titan was amun Thule and no one knows where he came from or was born. He wandered alone and then started nurturing the other world souls to titans. Do you even play the game? Saying this is just some danuser retcon. Pretty sure pyromancer been saying this stuff forever.
There is certainly something unique about Azeroth, but she is still being depicted as a Worldsoul just like Argus was. Referring to her as the Prime Worldsoul implies she stands apart from the others in some way, even.
And hey, maybe they’ll make her a non Titan eventually, but there’s not enough connective tissue in the story to sell that convincingly.
bro now you’re getting it. ppl out here writing theses over the narrative equivalents of easter bunnies: saccharine exterior, and absolutely nothing substantial within
Honestly, I think the modern writers have come to the same conclusion I have and are slowly seperating “order” energy from Arcane. If they’d revised the chart in chronicle 4 to have arcane seperate from the order sphere I wouldn’t have minded, personally.
I’m still not sold on the whole “titans are evil” angle.
The world soul was in danger from Old God blood seeping into the world. It seems to me the world core is not a prison so much as a safe room bubble to protect and shield it.
We also have the titans themselves embracing various cosmic forces: life, fel, etc. I feel there’s more going on here than just “make her one of us”.
And then there’s a lot of darkness bubbling up from below. It’s not all diamonds and dragons with glowing eyes. It’s sudden bursts of voidy corruption as well.
What if the world soul is not really as friendly as we believe? What if its unstable, flip-flopping between states like Beledar and an hour of twilight draws near?
Given that it was the world soul who was fighting against the titans from making that world core, i doubt that highly
Azeroth being some kind of nexus for all flavors of cosmic juice is a possibility the game has floated (in SL) in a vague way.
You’re a sneaky one, bro.
It’s just “when” and “why”, not “where” or “from what”.
Though Aman’thul was alone, he knew in his heart that others of its kind must exist. Thus, he explored the world of the Great Dark Beyond, intent on finding more titans. His quest was arduous and loneley, but it was ultimately fulfilling. In time, he discovered other nascent world souls. Aman’thul lovingly nurtured these newfound kin and roused them from slumber.
Other → means he came from a world soul as well.
Nurturing and rousing them is a little different from nurturing them to something, don’t you think?!
Everyone and their mother has read that Titans are automatically created from world souls because It’s phrased like that every time the subject comes up in Chronicle. Recontextualizing afterwards is exactly what I criticize.
I only claimed the fat part.
Prior to Chronicle, Arcane was considered demonic. Its source was the Twisting Nether. The Titans “avoided” arcane due to its corruption, with the exception of Norgannon. The Well of Eternity drew energy from the Nether and distributed it along Azeroth’s ley lines. The well was destroyed with the war of ancients, and magic was lost. Illidan preserved magic by creating a new well of eternity on Mount Hyjal.
Chronicle changed that. Arcane is no longer considered demonic, but rather “order”. Titans are “the main manifestation of order” and composed of arcane magic. That is also why the world soul of Azeroth (as an unborn titan) “bleeds” arcane when Y’shaari is ripped from the surface. The Well of Eternity was created to “fix” that and drew its power from Azeroth itself.
(sources on demand)
In other words, they retconned the entire lore of arcane magic. In the old lore, the arcane was chaotic. Today, it’s the magic of order. Of course, the new lore sources conflict with the old ones. It just doesn’t fit. It’s inconsistent. It has been bent to form this symmetrical chart. However, the lore will become a complete mess (It already is, but it can always be worse) if they’re separating arcane from order again.
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She has never been ‘just like Argus.’ They have always depicted her as more, special.
I think we will just have to disagree on this. I don’t feel like their ‘she is not a Titan’ hints have been remotely subtle.
I think this is a case of intent vs practicality. From what we have seen, I agree the intent was to safeguard her. Practically speaking, it would also function like a prison. It keeps other influences out, but also locks her in.
You said she was a Titan because her blood at the Well was arcane. That is claiming Arcane blood = Titan. Which is what I am arguing is not true.
you make me so happy
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Chronicle has ALWAYS been a telling from the titans pov. So it’s not a retcon to have them be shady with their motives. I don’t normally tout any streamers . But if you haven’t checked out pyromancer lore spec then do so. He’s been pretty spot on with sargeras and the titans drama. Proof is there and has been for a longgggg time.
Look at Argus as a Worldsoul. Look at Azeroth as a Worldsoul. They are both little balls of energy formed around a constellation. None of that precludes Azeroth being unique in some way, but if you show me two pictures of different ducks, my takeaway is going to be that they are both ducks. Even if you tell me one of them is allergic to water, swims in magma, and perfectly recites the US Pledge of Allegiance, I am not going to leap to “it isn’t a duck.” It might be a super special duck, but it is still a duck.
And take those two ducks into the future. Just because one became a duke roast doesn’t mean the other is guaranteed to become a roast. Azeroth could be seen as the duck that is a little smarter and a little stronger that was able to avoid the hunter.
From the story they seem to be telling, at least most World Souls start out as very similar (though some are stronger, smarter, etc.). Azeroth and Argus just ended up different. Argus got caught and ‘roasted’ by a Titan (Sargaras).
Some ducks become roasts, it doesn’t mean all have to.
Some world souls become titans, it doesn’t mean all have to.