To continue the conversation from here (since I can’t bump the thread):
It looks like Azeroth is indeed its own independent entity, and the Titans, like every other cosmic entity, is selfishly trying to shape Azeroth in its own image. That’s the big lie the Primalists were going on about and the outcome of the Titans being hit with the morally grey bat.
Also, the constructs like the Earthen weren’t made with free will, but rather were gifted it by proximity to Azeroth. I wondered why the Titans would create anything with free will if their goal was to order everything in a specific way, but that explains that. It’s interesting in relation to the Old Gods as well, since it shows the half truths they tell. They like to keep pointing out that they made many of the races what they are through the curse of flesh, but the free will part doesn’t necessarily go hand in hand with that.
Interesting all around. I don’t mind where that plotline is going, interested to see where the Worldsoul Saga takes us.
They likely didn’t create anything. The Old Gods talk about ‘The curse of stone’ and I’m starting to believe there is truth in it and the titans just co-opted creation and made themselves false Gods.
I don’t necessarily disagree. One of my biggest gripes has been that Chronicles was basically thrown out the window in less time than it took to read it. Went from a canon historical book to “from the Titan’s perspective” way too quick. Argus was a worldsoul, and became a corrupted Titan in the end and not something else. Not sure how he was still a Titan if he wasn’t influenced by order magic at all.
The whole worldsouls = nascent Titans didn’t make sense after the introduction of the First Ones, either. Once we found out their level of beings are created in whatever Zereth they came from, it didn’t make much sense that Titans were the only ones that manifested in reality kind of on their own.
That being said, I may take the retcons a little more lightly than some just knowing that a cohesive story over a game’s 20 year life span is hard to maintain, especially when creative writers come and go. The whole Argus thing at the end of Legion doesn’t FEEL that long ago, but Legion is 8 years old now (and was in development even before that). As long as we get some explanation about what the heck Worldsouls are by the end of this, I can maybe be satisfied.
Well it’s in the old lore that Aman’thul being the first to awake ventured out and nurtured all the other world souls until they were born titans. In the new context that can be read as him infusing them with order magic until they became the titans we know, like what they tried to do with Azeroth.
That might not entirely be accurate. The way the Titans describe World Souls is very much like they were already Titans. To me it looks like the more accurate description would be they believed they were Titans and were trying to help them mature. From their perspective they were not changing the world souls, more just nurturing them. And every other time they did it the World Soul did become a Titan, so that belief would make some sense.
Did they? Was there really no one to control it?
There are things that suggest otherwise (As was mentioned with Aman’thul).
I would agree it is because I really don’t believe that was the original plan/design.
But I don’t think it directly contradicts what we had been told. So, it is not an Erodar-esque situation. So, it falls in more closely to an expansion of lore than an actual change.
That’s not the word they used in the Archives quest from this week, though:
Archaedas says: The great Khaz’goroth revealed to me that the corrupting influence of the imprisoned Old Gods was affecting the Worldsoul.
Archaedas says: To protect it, we had the earthen construct the Worldcore–a vast chamber at the heart of the world. There, the Worldsoul will slumber, with only the titans to influence it.
Influence has quite a different connotation than nurture. Specifically when the goal is to eliminate any other influence other than Titan influence.
Yes and no. I have heard parents refer to removing/stopping ‘other influences’ on their kids. Yes, that does carry the connotation that parents are influencing their kids, and they are. It doesn’t mean they don’t think they are nurturing them. It is just that they see their influence as positive and natural.
In the same way, the Titans may see blocking other influences as them just helping the World Soul become ‘the Titan it was meant to be.’ They may see their interaction as the natural course of nurturing them to maturity.
Just to be clear, I was not saying the Titans were correct. Only they maybelieve the World Souls are Titans.
It is plausible that they think they are doing a good and natural thing. That they think they are helping the World Souls develop naturally. Which of course leaves plenty of room for them to be very wrong.
The issue is mainly Argus. Who despite being pumped full of Death and Fel magic was still born as a ‘Titan’. That is even an important plot point for Shadowlands.
There is also the similar naming scheme when it comes to things like Argunite, Azerite and Sargerite.
I doubt it was pure coincidence that Blizzard named 3 materials related to Titans / World Souls all with the suffix ‘ite’. Considering they all first appeared in Legion.
Then there is also the fact that Magni could hear the other Titans, including Argus. He comments that their voices are similar to Azeroth as well.
Aman’thul also has to come from somewhere.
Then, there is Argus.
But the most important:
Titans are tied to the cosmic force known as Order and are the embodiments of arcane. In fact, arcane is their very lifeblood. The original Well of Eternity, an enormous lake of volatile arcane energies, was literally the very lifeblood of Azeroth’s world-soul. World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1, pg. 36
I’m not, because it most likely came from Danuser.
This type of lore will be linked to the Big Coup, which will be released with The Last Titan and is likely as well thought out as the Jailer’s Plan. I hope Metzen throws everything out the window and writes something decent.
Every Worldsoul has a constellation appearance. So do fully fledged Titans when their essence is depicted. Attempting to say it is a blank slate just doesn’t track with much of anything.
Meanwhile, we’ve always known they are corruptible, but a Fel or Death corrupted Titan is still a Titan.
And we know nothing about how he came to be. Maybe he was legitimately a Titan naturally and just assumed all the other World Souls were as well. Maybe he was influenced by some outside force. Etc.
Sorry man, that is just a bad take.
You are guessing it came from him, you don’t know that.
Saying you don’t like a story threat just because it came from a specific person is just screaming prejudiced view that shouldn’t be taken seriously. Even a bad writer can have a good idea. (Note, not calling this one good or bad, just pointing out the principle.)
So, if you say you don’t like a story arc, that is fine. Think it feels forced, fine. Etc, etc. Saying you don’t like a story arc because X person probably, maybe wrote it, bad take.
And:
Is not mutually exclusive with her not being a Titan. Having arcane be a big part of her, literally in her blood, doesn’t make her a Titan, or even that much like the other Titans.
Like I said, yes it is a retcon (a change from the original plan). But it doesn’t directly counter anything in the past.
I guess that depends on how you define a Titan. Is a Titan any giant, super powerful being that is born from planets? Than sure. What if you define it more narrowly, are they only Titans if they are part of the pantheon?
The Aspects described Azeroth blessing them as “not Titan magic.” Which makes sense, because the Titan magic they are familiar with were the Patheon’s magic. They would certainly say the same about the magic of a ‘Death Titan’ or a ‘Fel Titan.’
So, it all depends on if you want to identify the word Titan broadly or not.
And consider that the character’s interaction with Titans and Titan-like beings is limited. So, some recategorizing would be justified.
Every interaction we have had with Worldsouls or Titans supports what was on the books. Argus is too perfect a case study proving the opposite to support the notion that Worldsouls are only Titans if Titans get to them first. This even jives with Sargeras’ fear of a void corrupted Titan instead of the Worldsoul hatching into a Void Lord or Super Old God or something.
I would be willing to entertain the idea that Azeroth in particular is something else, but now they’re rubbing our noses in another constellation orb, which is exactly what Worldsouls are.
Most Titan Orbs are Blue… Definite signs of Corruption by the Light.
Of course if Azeroth is a Light Titan then the Light’s One True Path seems suspect…
Beledar is still up for investigation: Imagine if Archaedas turns out to be wrong about that one… Even so the Titan World Soul must have Crystalized the outer shell of Beledar over time as Titans are beings of Order therefore the Titan World Soul should be enforcing Structure on whatever Beledar is even as Beledar and it’s kind enforce Light upon the World Soul.
Life of course can force Flesh into the World Soul’s nature even without Void. The Titan’s beloved Order is going to be subverted thanks to that World Tree’s Roots!
It is golden in one of the archives, blue-gold like Azerite in others. The implication, I think, is that whatever the Titans did suppressed or removed the blue, and Sargeras’ stab brought it back.
I still don’t buy that Beledar is just a big chunk of Azerite. That makes little sense with Light/Void cycling (and being pure Light also makes no sense).
I think its going to be more that Titans aren’t necessarily order but can embody anything cosmic force with enough influence but Aman’thul favored order and was the first.
Eonar leans more towards life already, Sargeras was corrupted to fel and Argus was a mixture of both fel and Death.
I also don’t think the last expansion’s name is a lie or some kind of twist. Azeroth is the last Titan, but she might not be a Titan of order.
Also keep in mind that other than a single book from Dragonflight that seems to already be retconned by chronicle 4, the Titans don’t have an “arcane” realm they come from. Arcane elementals seem to come through rifts in reality, but the Titans are born in space out of cosmic stardust.
I think Titans being the “order” pantheon is a gigantic lie and that they’re actually the “reality” pantheon, able to embody any of the cosmic forces yet have been shoe horned into being the embodiment of order by Aman’thul.
I do wonder if either the Light or the First Ones will end up being involved as they seem to be the other two biggest forces obsessed with Order.