The meta problem, with screenshots you pretend don't exist

Community General Discussion
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Hi folks!

There’s a multitude of threads airing out their grievances with the m+ meta, rightfully so. There’s a large gap between the performance power of the god comp and everyone else.

Does it matter in +20 to say +23(late August, 2023)? That’s the range I play atm as non-meta, often getting into other non-meta groups, or folks desperate for a tank meaning they’ve been waiting or they have no business doing the key they’re listing, but they’re “trying” it, and doing 1 key lower afterwards.

And I can say yes, yes it does matter in +20 to +23.

+20 to +23 is still push keys for folks that need them for io.
These folks will min/max to some degree, that’s where the enormous gap between meta and everyone else starts to have social repercussions.
These folks’ friends/guildies/community/acquaintances who are meta, are pushing higher keys than them. Imagine what that could do to a person just trying their best on their beloved class/role.
There are certainly mechanics in say a +22, or maybe lower, that will 1shot squishies that didn’t shot them before +22.
Priest Mind Soothe and Mass Dispel are required for the best pulls in some dungeons.
In Halls of Infusion, the dragons after frog boss to ice troll boss could spell the end of a run without mass dispel, and at the very least be a time consuming pressure point for everyone else without mass dispel. That alone is one great example.
The synergy of PI + Mage(+Aug?) is unmatched in any other comp.
Bear tanks alone are doing so much damage(esp +Aug), it can carry group dps for folks who otherwise wouldn’t time a key.
On top of Bear tank damage, I thought the wow dev mantra was “yes, the highest damage tanks fall short in other areas”. Meanwhile bears can kite/dps better than anyone else, are the easiest to play, Moonfire utility/threat is unmatched, Incarn hello, self heals, overall tankiness… that’s just off the top of my head having a bear tank alt who’s completed the mage tower challenge. So what’s the deal?

Moreover, if people don’t see the meta comp in their group, they lose faith in said group.
They play differently because of the situation they’re in. This is human nature as much as forum trolls will surely say that’s silly behaviour. Guess what, you all do it to some degree.

This game is very much bring the class, not the player.
Sometimes healers are pretty vocal in party chat how much they don’t understand BDK tanking. Often they do nothing to help solve that problem of theirs, trying to prove BDK is a bad idea. Unfortunately I have a lot of experience getting no help, shields, absorbs, assists, utility, or, right, heals from healers (it’s in the name) during pressure points because they want to show ppl BDK is a fail.

This is all just off the top of my head while I sit between queues blowing a full 1hr phial, 1hr food buff, 1hr weapon stone because the folks in the last key were “trying” a 22 they had no idea how to handle and the group failed.

On top of paid rating carries, free ilvl, which you can’t trust either of these any more, of course people are going to min/max the meta comp. Is that really another thing payers should be concerned with to this degree?

As a tank, the meta is decided by whoever does the most dps, always. So just boost the dps of all other tanks, in varying degrees to more closely match that of bear tank. Show ppl who don’t keep up with the news that yes, a BDK, warr, monk can all do supreme dmg to carry bad DPSers, too.

It’s as simple as that.

Even (paid) carries aside, a tank or healer who does top tier dps is another defensive tool in their kit- things that die faster do less dmg.

And regarding the news on nurfs, I’m not really huge on taking away or nurfing the meta too much, and I’m more than entitled to changing that opinion on a case to case basis. So just adequately buff the under performing classes that currently require triple the work for the same results.
Truth is, people have practiced on these characters for x many months, they are still going to play them well, the muscle memory, WAs, addons, UI are all there. So minor nurfs that don’t bring the meta in line with others, doesn’t have the same trickle down affect as buffing the lesser pleb classes.
Buffing what’s under performing is such a win/win/win for everybody, I get so perplexed why that isn’t a thing where “gameplay first” used to be the philosophy, then I remember it’s 2023.

In this case, let bears do their dmg, that sounds fun af! But the rest of us want to have fun instead of *gestures to below table.

Anyways, some sample screenshots from my perspective sitting in queue and getting spam denied/expired for +22 to +23 this weekend in keys that I’m using two DPS trinkets for most, almost bored tanking until someone inevitably displays their lack of understanding of dungeons/ affixes (which is fine, I make mistakes too, but there’s a difference between a fatfinger, and not knowing what you’re doing fundamentally)

I gleaned the information from raider.io the day after getting declined for groups I could easily tank by all metrics. This as a 28-2900 BDK (currently 2940, nothing has changed).

The screenshots after the data table are exclusive, they’re not in the table, just what I see while browsing.

editing to add casual Sunday:

updated to show the following weekend:

The weekend after that :rofl::

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The only thing I would say is that BDK yoyo HP mechanic is stupid and should be peared back since it freaks out healers 99% of the time. Other than that, nerf bear?

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When there are 38 specs in the game that require the healer to watch health bars (as one would expect) to know when healing is needed, and 1 spec in the game where the healthbar is largely irrelevant in favor of a secondary power bar that may or may not be displayed with how the person has their unit frames set up (even without addons), yeah, a design failure is occurring.

Playing a BDK doesn’t feel bad, but Healing one is a nightmare that has no reason to exist.

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I was about to invite you and then I saw this complaint post, and then I looked at your logs and found out why you aren’t getting invited to other groups.

For example

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hQ9G7xBTKCvqVrXH#fight=77&type=damage-done

Yes you can probably tank it but so can a lot of other people while also doing 30-40k more dps. If you want to do keys as an off meta, push your own like I am doing. It sucks but it works.

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If your healer doesn’t understand how classes and their defensives work they shouldn’t be pushing high keys. Just because one of the tank classes has more to understand doesn’t mean that class should be changed, just makes it easier to know if you dont want to play with that healer again. If every key is with brand new people, its your own fault for not adding people after having a good run.

All you’re seeing is people expecting to carry people in the upper ilvl reward key range so they gravitate towards the safest group composition. I’d bet that if you look at the numbers of meta specs which are playing at 20-23 how many as a % within their own spec make it and push 25+ keys has a steep drop relative to non meta specs who are running 23 keys and then push beyond. If you’re playing reroll meta and not pushing 25+ you’re probably a below average player, that’s perfectly fine but I don’t know why you would expect to find an amazing player rerolled into a meta spec playing 20-23 keys. They’re either rerolled pushing really high keys or playing their own class pushing slightly less high keys but still above 23… probably with a core group but typically bad players who can’t find a core group reroll each season so they can be carried by their classes in the current 20+ range.

I find it odd how when there’s bad push weeks people play less, that’s the best time to find friends, find people doing 18-20 keys on a bad week, judge their ability to do bad affixes and play with them on easier weeks in the 20+.

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The real M+ meta is to not participate in M+.

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Or, just don’t invite that spec problem solved. It’s rather if a blood dk messes up. they are dead. You cannot save them. If other tanks mess up, you “might” be able to heal them. But they are also likely dead in a global.

You have to rely on a blood dk to heal themselves as they drop to 10% hp, it doesn’t matter if they have the RP or not, they still need to use that skill.

And there goes purgatory, now, we are really dead.

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I’d think a lot of average healers would rather play with a good tank of any class than a bad player of the best. In the case of blood dk it’s usually a good player if you’re actually pushing keys. The problem is people don’t socialize at all and if things are going too fast they think its wrong to tell the tank to wait a sec for cooldowns (even though in most cases a very good tank is watching cooldowns of the entire group).

Its odd how if a blood dk gives off good vibes after one run and I keep playing with them the night is smooth. I can have a great run with any other class and sometimes 2 or 3 runs in they do something odd which just makes me shake my head and wonder what they were thinking. Sometimes they have humility but oh boy do they sometimes lash out on the rest of the group. Like the wild side urn in De Other Side.

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bad tanks exist of every class. I ran into a blood dk in 20+ that used death strike as part of their dps rotation, not as a healing mechanic.

I don’t think blood dks are magically more skilled than other tanks.

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If they have the capability to make more mistakes then they require more skill to play at the same level.

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I guess it’s a wash then, someone really skilled playing on a weak class leads to not much compared to a weak player on a strong class cause it becomes equal.

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If all you’re doing is pushing 20-23 keys then it really doesn’t matter, which is where a lot of meta complaints seemingly come from because it’s full of people who only pug. If you’re pushing beyond, towards the upper limits of what Bis gear can offer then obviously every class is going to have a different cut off where it becomes impossible for them to continue, no matter the skill level of the player.

If all you’re doing is pugging then invite whoever by whatever metric and take each dungeon one at a time. If you’re genuinely interested in pushing keys then by now you probably realize you have to judge the players you continue to play with, if they’re playing a braindead spec or a class with lower capability for mistakes it’s much more difficult to judge how they will behave when you push higher.

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If all you’re doing is pushing 20-23 keys then it really doesn’t matter, which is where a lot of meta complaints seemingly come from because it’s full of people who only pug.

Meta does matter post augmentation, if I play preservation, bad players are more likely to accept me. If I play augmentation, I play with better players, and a better spec healer (holy) maybe not so much now cause of all the nerfs and preservation is second.

If people are willing to deviate from the meta, likely, they are lacking skill to begin with. Keyholder + exodia turns into the safest composition.

Dealing with people that know about exodia, and people that do not know about exodia and cannot make said comp. It’s one thing if people know and don’t think they need it. It’s another if they have no clue.

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So are you future minded at all or strictly focused on this season? Do you expect the players you’ve added to your friends this season playing exodia to reroll into the best comp next season so you can push keys? What about the non exodia players who refuse to reroll this season? Are you just hoping that when they become meta next season they’ll invite you to your groups when you play meta as well?

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Focus on the moment.

People might permanently move to Baldur’s Gate for all I know. Playing with someone on the off chance they might be better to play with in the far off future is a losing premise.

If friends from previous seasons and still playing off meta, well, that’s different. And cause M+ isn’t the only thing that exists, knowing people from raid and friend of friends are also reasons to play with off meta specs.

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Just curious what your purpose in this thread is. It seems to be “fotm or bust for me” but skirting around those exact words.

If so, is that the energy you think this feedback post needs?

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If that’s all players care about is focusing on the moment, then they’re aways going to gravitate towards the meta comp. So its a player exaggerated problem, not something blizzard can address unless they want to completely homogenize the game. Sure they can shift the meta which causes players to dance around and get a new experience but they’re still chasing whatever makes the game the easiest in the moment with little regard for who the player they continue to play with is.
You can’t really help the vocal minority who is willing to reroll every patch for a slight increase in performance all so that they can push sub top level keys.

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People might have aspirations to do top level keys, and fall short of that. And now, with how fast gearing is, rerolling is trivial.

You can still make friends with meta players, and a few of my friends have rerolled into meta specs once they wanted to push.

Some people are flexible on classes they play. But there’s no real point in going out to intentionally make friends who are non-meta.

And if you have a non-meta friend that is skilled, you’re more than likely willing to bring them into high keys.

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While what you say is true, you only have to look at the end of last season to see one of the most diverse metas we’ve ever had outside of the tank role, at all levels of play. There will always be things that are a better option, but those things can be closer together and the list of them can be longer than 5.

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We’re talking about this season’s problems. This month’s problems. Today’s problems.
The tauren is getting baited by the dracthur, but try to stay relevant, sir.