Tanks need to be tankier. I miss Legion tanking, where active mitigation was strong and tanks could actually control their own fate rather than praying the healer can keep up.
Class balance in general is really bad right now, really hoping to see some hotfix tuning this tuesday as they should be returning from holidays.
Buff Havoc. Make First Blood Baseline. That will change things.
Blizzard made two big mistakes:
1.) They absolutely **** the bed on class balance this expac. Itâs not even close. Compare Demon Hunters to Warrior tanks. One is a beast, one tanks about as well as an aggro pullin Warlock. DPS? Holy hell⊠you can land a jumbo jet in between the classes at the top and bottom of the meters.
And heals is a complete joke. You got Resto Shamans who can mash 2 buttons and no one ever dies⊠and Mistweaver Monks who Iâd replace with Warriors with High First Aid if this was really Classic.
2.) Theyâve put so much responsibility on things dying quickly - which means DPS are more important than the tank and healers. The problem is: most DPS dont get to run as many instances as tanks/healers. Ever wonder why it seems the tank (and most of the time the healer) seem to know mechanics? Because they get instant or near instant queues to practically every dungeon.
So what happens when you put the most responsibility on the statistically more likely to be the least experienced members of the group? You wipe. You fail. And you have a miserable time.
Horrible design, Blizz.
CC is still being done though? Slows, interrupts, silences, stuns and knockbacks are all forms of CC, all which are done every pull at high M+ key levels if you donât want to wipe.
As for other forms of hard crowd control like Polymorph etc, thatâs still being used too, albeit more sparingly and without the tank having to take 30s at the start of every pull marking targets and typing out CC assignments. If you see a ranged mob wailing on the healer and the tank missed it, you polymorph it. No need to wait for people to tell you to do it before you do.
People wanted things to be a threat. Bliz has succeeded in making DPS who pull instead of the tank die for it.
The problem is, that gives mobs a high base damage and M+ scales multiplicatively.
So the question becomes: how do you reduce the need to kite, punish dumb dps, keep the timer in place, and not cause other unintended problems?
I have 2 tanks at 200+ ilvl (DH, Pally) and 3 other at 190 ilvl (druid, DK, monk). VDH is easily the best for M+ keys, followed closely by monk, then druid, pally, and DK.
Pally is extremely squishy compared to the leather wearers (even at -10 item levels, monk is easily the better and âtankierâ tank)
All this hits me right in the feels, iâve tanked since vanilla and I hate the current meta. Tanks should gear defensively, tank damage should be a bonus, not a requirement. This whole idea of snap aggro, then running around like an idiot hoping to not die till the pack dies is just ridiculous. Yet another instance where Blizzard has lost their way.
I had the complete opposite experience as you. DHs are horrible to heal, bears and monks are pretty decent. Anyways, tell your friends to pick Black Ox brew instead of Light Brewing, and he will know what it feel like to have a Pally bubble every 30 secs or so, at least in mid-low keys.
All this tells me is that
CC needs to be a component in PvE because not all tanks can be, need be, or should be highly mobile and capable of kiting. If all tanks become kiting tanks, we lose part of what makes different tanks different and interesting. Weâve already lost a lot of what makes DPSing interesting as all you do when you dps is focus on your rotation and donât stand in bad.
We need a CC renascence in WoW PvE if we want M+ to work. You should be able to walk into a high key and CC your way to a triple chest.
Itâs not even always big AoE pulls. Like the big bois in De Other Side, thereâs a pull with 2 and that can really hurt even if they get soothed. Depends on key level and if Fortified or not, but still.
As long as the focus is a timer, Hard CC wonât see any kind of revival, at least in trash packs. We see a bit of relevant CC on the 2nd boss in Mists and I really like that. Itâs a mechanic (Freeze Tag) where nuking it is actively detrimental depending on positioning and Hard CC is preferable. We also see it on the Beastlord boss in Nathria whose exact name I forget. I like that. But it doesnât really translate to your standard trash pull at all.
I kinda have to side with Fob on this one.
I didnât see you making these posts in BFA when Protection Warriors were basically king. And didnât even need healers on Tyrannical bosses⊠Hell, Warriors and Monks have almost always been the 2 tank kings. Iâm glad Druids and Vengeance are doing well for a change. Though I imagine Protection Warriors will become top tier again as gear improves.
Regardless, let Vengeance have some time in the spotlight, itâs the only spec Demon Hunters have left after what they did to Havoc.
From what I read, dh tanks wouldnât have the aoe issue dps dh would. So is it a tank problem or a game problem? I know with pally tanks we might have aoes but nothing like dh tanks.
Itâs really no surprise DHS are top mythic makeup.
Only true if you donât understand how to properly manage and break CC as part of a pull. There are efficient ways to CC mobs and efficient ways to stagger CCd mobs. All kinds of protections for CC have been in the game for over a decade just to help facilitate itâs use in PvE and we have all kinds of tools that people refuse to use because of opinions like yours.
CC is bad if and only if your goal is to kill things in a group with AoE so that they all die at roughly the same time.
If most of your damage is true cleave damage or single-target damage then breaking CC as things are about to die is just as efficient as fighting everything at the same time.
If, OTOH, youâre relying on AoE damage for clearing speed to the point that you simply canât use CC at all my original #1 point stands that AoE is still way too powerful in too many situations.
Explain how you would design trash encounters with multiple mobs in which AoE isnât always the best option. Do you want Torghast-style stacking damage buffs on a single mob in every pack to force you to single target it? More mobs like Squad Leaders reducing AoE damage? Does it make sense to have these kinds of mechanics in most pulls?
You have to tune damage better. The target cap was a good start, but needs to go farther. A lot farther. Buff cleave damage to compensate since cleave damage is much better suited to CC.
Buff AoE with more side-effects to make it all more about control than damage; at least in PvE. Fear, roots, stunsâŠget creative.
The problem isnât the trash mobs. Itâs the AoE.
Looks like someone never tanked in Shadowlands.
OP said high keys, youâll see what he means if you get that far.
You know⊠keys where packs are alive 2-3 times longer than on keys you do.
I normally tank BrM and every run I do is really dicey. I healed my DH guildie and Iâm not the best mistweaver at all, I certainly feel more comfortable tanking and it was a breeze.
Honestly, Iâm just hoping itâs a gearing problem. Vengeance is strong because it does stupid burst aoe damage and is the god of kiting. But if anything touches it, it is the worst tank to heal (seriously, all these FOTM rerolls who donât know when to run have traumatized me). But we need to remember that this is the beginning of the expansion. No one has the gear to fully express what our classes actual potential is or what the scaling is going to be like. Hell, people are just now figuring out that bear with incarn is damn near immortal.
But God if it isnât miserable to play any other tank right now. Kiting isnât fun when you canât just hop across the map.
AOE would have to not exist to make CC a thing again, with a timer.
Good groups will still pull mobs if only 5-10% of damage is hitting them. Because itâs still way more time efficient for all possible damage to be landing on as many mobs as possible. Thatâs simply how you can make up time.
Itâs nothing to do with opinion, itâs simple fact.
Thereâs no way to make up time with CC unless they design specifically for it. E.g ccâing a certain mob halves the health of everthing else. Or you CCcertain mobs from different packs to then AOE them together afterwards for some reason.
Simply CCâing something to reduce pull size and then still kill it after is incredibly inefficient. Players will find every possibly way to not do that.
If everything you say is true, then mobs are not hitting the tank hard enough.