Blizzard is still trying to break into the esports scene for 10 years now. Outside of the WFR and even that is debatable it’s no where near at the level mobas and fps games are.
I wish they’d just stop.
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Challenge is a great thing, but there does come a point where it’s simply exhausting. Even the most dedicated players are going to burn themselves out if you’ve thrown out fun and focused solely on producing difficult content. Not many people want to white knuckle from start to finish in a dungeon that could potentially run as long as half an hour if things go sideways. Mind you, you’re going to be white knuckling for some amount of time whether it goes sideways or not.
Middle ground is the thing to aim for, and they found that in the latter part of DF. Sure, they might’ve made M+ a little too easy at that time, but it at least serves as a good point to start working from.
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Having some super hard content is NOT overly worried about them.
WOW had that in vanilla, and has that now.
Why expect a game to fundamentally change on that level?
A lot of this is the result of the current reward structure. Unlike raiding, M+ doesn’t have any natural stopping points.
Look at DF S2 for example. Many casual players stopped at 11. That got them Wyrm crests, champion drops and hero vault. They wouldn’t get noticeably better rewards until 16/17. All the dead or redundant keys that the squish sought to remove acted as a soft barrier, encouraging them to stop there and feel satisfied.
In DF S4, they got the same rewards from a +2 and wouldn’t get noticeably better rewards until 6/7. That gap was a big enough deterrent they they’d just farm 2s. They wouldn’t be as satisfied as they were when they had to “work” from 2-11 but they probably wouldn’t push much further.
While the current system having meaningfully better rewards every few key levels can be a good thing, it also encourages people to progress past their skill and comfort level. No matter where you stop, better rewards are almost within reach, leading to dissatisfaction.
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I think dungeon rotation plays a part in it as well. The selection this season was indisputably cancerous as all hell, and season 2 is only going to be moderately better. The gimmick dungeons add another layer that a lot of M+ players just don’t want to deal with. One could argue this in fact players them on the lower end of the spectrum for skill, and maybe they’ve got a point, but everybody has areas they’re better at or worse at.
Some people can play their class like it’s a bloody musical instrument while doing every boss mechanic correctly but will fall flat the second you start throwing in dungeons like Tirna Scithe that do weird crap. There’s a reason people rely on addons to solve that garbage instead of just doing it themselves.
Feeling like you got screwed out of loot by some gimmick rather than a straight up lack of conventional skill definitely leads to a lot of frustration for many.
Yep, same. I haven’t even attempted this one as AC LS holy paladin or kittyweaving resto druid because I honestly don’t even know how to do it because the boss mechanics are tuned so brutally this season.
It’s not even “healer carries”. Between the key squish and the multitude of defensives most classes have, most encounters are tuned now with the assumption that players are using said defensives properly. The problem is…they aren’t.
The funny thing is, I see a lot of complaints about incoming damage being too spikey. It…actually isn’t. If (and only if) people use their defensive toolkits properly. It’s actually very manageable. The problem is a lot of DPS, and your average PUG DPS especially, don’t, so it just seems spikey. Hot take, but I think a big disarmament of defensives (and subsequent tuning down of unavoidable damage and/or healing) would make m+ more enjoyable again.
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only the lazy/bad ones. most of us enjoy it, and most of the rest at least put up with it.
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i healed a 13 mists the other day and finished at like 600k hps. when people use kicks/stops/defensives properly, the healing requirements are really pretty low.
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Rare upvote for Pyri,
but I agree,
when I am healing and all party is at 100%, I can cast a few (a lot) damaging spells.
Who complained bout that.
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Appreciate your response.
I’m ok with making M+ easier (Or lowering the rewards). To me, making the game more accessible means less sweaty folks in the pool and more socially fun folks.
I’d rather game with chill folks than feel the tension of a lose every run.
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I wouldn’t mind this for a number of reasons. Maybe it is a hot take, but it’s one I’m onboard with. It would improve PvP right alongside making M+ a smoother experience for your average player.
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If it was the hardcore gamers that this game caters to then did they completely gut this game in other aspect such as racials in this game? Why did they nerf all the classes over the years due to some wing ding fingered person in these forums crying that their class lost to another class in pvp it needs nerfed.
A few examples:
The blood Elf racial used to be fun and unique. Stealing mana from casters as well as silencing them. That used to fun and made gameplay different.
Rogues cheat death PPM that was insanely OP. As well as many other things from various classes over the years.
The sheer fact us as a community as a whole also we need to be accountable for things just as much casual or hardcore for some decisions over the years. They gutted such classes as rogues and implemented Monks and DHs and gave them between both the old survivability of rogues used to be and do.
See, that’s the thing that’s insane about healing right now.
The same key with one group could be 600k overall, but the next group might be 900k and you’re white-knuckling it for 30 minutes straight.
Imagine another role needing to casually output a full 50% more over the course of an entire dungeon for it to continue running because the other players aren’t pressing their buttons? It’s just kind of crazy how inconsistent it is.
The difference in healing an Evoker that presses Renewing Blaze or Obsidian Scales as they are targeted by Infestation by Anub’zekt and one that isn’t is astounding. Likewise, the difference in handling an unavoidable AoE like Commanding Roar in GB when a mage uses Mass Barrier or Evoker uses Zephyr properly might save me a healer CD. It’s just wild the difference in performance that can happen.
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They made these changes for M+, lol.
Can’t tell if this is just salty pvp talk but racials we’re by far one of the biggest complaints from hardcore players and they still are today.
Before M+ was even in the picture they did these things. LOL
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110% agreed
It seems like that is what Mustachio was trying to figure out. And you elected to deflect as if he was somehow suggesting WoW should be targeting the higher end. It’s a valid question: what is the threshold of content Blizzard should be targeting? “Average” isn’t a single point, it’s a range. So at what point are we okay with losing people who fall below and above the bell curve?
Potentially more importantly, which I already asked you in a previous thread that you haven’t responded to, what happens when the average player gets better? You keep pushing this opinion that’s all too common in basically every successful video game that Blizzard needs to stop listening to the elite players, that all content should target the average player.
But what you don’t seem to realize is that “average player” is not a static level over the course of the game’s history. The average player in vanilla didn’t even reach level 60. The average player that did reach level 60 didn’t touch a single raid. Meanwhile the average player in TWW is able to complete raids, delves, and M+ keys at levels that are significantly more difficult than Molten Core or Blackwing Lair were back in vanilla. This might be the case where Blizzard is still talking to the same players for feedback, just those players are significantly better at the game.
I didn’t enjoy most of SL for healing keys (raid healing was great). I’m cool with DPSing when there is no healing, it’s certainly fun trying to beat personal best DPS numbers as a healer.
But what’s not fun is having 85% of my globals going to damage in a +22 PUG that we easily 2-chest because the only reason they even need a healer is the 6 damage events the group won’t survive without one. I do still expect when I queue healer to be healing with at least half my globals in a PUG beyond where rewards stop, not simply be a 4th gimped DPS save for the 90 seconds when the group actually relies on me to heal them.
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i get it. but the alternative is they tune instances to include much more unavoidable damage, which just hurts the healers who are already struggling. this is one of those “you think you do, but you don’t” situations for healers who are complaining that filling more than 30% of their gcds is too challenging.
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Its unpopular because it hasn’t changed for almost 8 years, is constantly one of the worst tanks in M+, and it hasn’t received a major rework since its massive nerfs coming into WoD.
So yeah, of course its unpopular, because its been neglected and left to rot. When Brewmaster is actually somewhat decent it has an appropriate level of representation, which is about 10% instead of its abysmally low % its at now (Last checked, its at like, 6% for overall) compared to Shadowlands Season 3 where they were sitting at a comfortable 12%