The problem with m+ is garbage terrible players with 0 mindfulness or ability to examine their own gameplay latching onto meta and balancing as to why they cant complete a scripted dungeon in under 30 minutes.
Blizzard made a mistake by releasing only augmentation evoker and not reworking some other specs to play with the similar support role. It’s fun and something different. I’d argue that you didn’t need to make a support only group slot of balance correctly, it would be like running content without lust in that it’s doable but the lust helps. They need to have about 4 more specs changed to support play that way we have more options to do something similar and the monopoly on support isn’t in one spec.
Also, yes to adding a third tank spot to raiding. If you make the highest end content require more tanks there will be more doing that role. They do need to rethink the heal and tank changes some though because it gets brutal and isn’t fun.
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Specs being able to recover mana in a vacuum isn’t the untrue part, it’s in context as a way for healers to avoid having to drink that is untrue.
Healing specs do not spend mana at the same rate as one another nor do they have the same mana recovery tools. It’s fully expected that by the end of a fight a resto druid, even when playing around clearcasting, to have less mana than a preservation evoker.
Going one step further, the mechanism by which each healer does regen mana is also not uniform. A mistweaver monk generates tea stacks through the course of healing, meaning they will have a predictable amount of tea mana return. A resto druid relies on a random proc and having GCDs they can commit to damage in order to restore mana, making it much less predictable how much mana they will get back.
Lastly, the “used to” discussion isn’t very useful when the topic is on present day. I can’t throw on mana per 5 gear (because druids got the shaft with spirit), the fact that it was an option for regenerating mana in vanilla doesn’t help me in the slightest in TWW. Mana was a lot more universal in previous iterations of WoW across healers; nobody had a secondary resource and cooldowns were all measured in minutes (if not longer), it all came down to managing your mana with everyone having slow efficient spells and fast inefficient spells. Today, mana is just one of up to three resources healers manage, with the healers that get a higher share of their healer from an alternate resource using less mana overall.
Thus, the notion that all healers that might need to drink between pulls are simply not using their mana efficiently is an oversimplification at best. A preservation evoker may not touch a drink all dungeon because the bulk of their healing is coming from spells that use essence rather than mana and/or are their 30 second cooldown empowerment spells. Meanwhile a resto druid is simply going to spend more mana in the first place and the spec has inconsistent mana return, and might need to top off a few times.
Not once have I said players who like challenge aren’t the minority. But the inclusion of higher challenge modes hasn’t eliminated the easier modes, either. Is it really an issue with a player who likes a challenge having the ability to push an M+ key, or the player that caps out at heroic dungeons demanding the best rewards exist for them at that level?
This entire section is projection after projection toward me. That’s part of the issue I take with your arguments; you refuse to stick to just the points people make. You always assign my motivation for something or should put the fun of others ahead of my own or dismiss me as being some extremist that is out of touch. I have told you countless times what I think and why, but you always try to tell me what I think.
Every one of these three sentences does all of these things. And not a single one of them even comes close to representing my view point.
This is straight slander and you’re the embodiment of a hypocrite. I have not once pushed my play style onto other people. I have routinely advocated for more ways to play the game across all skill levels. I constantly call out others for taking elitist positions even when I agree with their takes about other aspects of the game.
You yourself acknowledge you rarely respond to me. I have not once asked a question of you in bad faith, but rarely do you respond. And when you do, you engage in the same fallacies and projections to dismiss me as you have here. I have given you far more benefit of the doubt than you deserve, and honestly am continuing to do so here.
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Maybe this is why Paladin, the wheelchair class, is so popular lol.
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Well there’s Delves now so there’s that.
I get what you mean though. Delves weren’t really the solution as far as MMO [whatever you want to call said group of people] goes.
They didn’t want Delves. They wanted a fun social medium challenge to work towards similar to how FF14 has savages.
M+ technically has that but at the same time you have to ask yourself why those people refuse to step into it? Maybe FF14 has the same problem with savages? I couldn’t say.
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Nerfing or simplfying trash is the only thing that really needs to be done. The M+ problems come from trash packs with raid boss levels of mechanics that routinely hit players for 70% of their health bar. Scale back trash mechancis and damage while increasing trash HP.
Of course then the BUT HEALERS WILL HAVE TO DPS crowd comes in and makes a scene.
WoW has always been this enigma where it was founded as a casual player alternative to the inherent tryhard no life world that MMOs explicitly offered…but yet the community largely fancied themselves still as temporarily embarrassed world first caliber players if only for [insert excuses here]. Despite content objectively being designed to require sub 50% of a players potential output when appropriately geared (which does NOT mean being AT the ilvl of the content that gear drops from but 10-20 points under it), the community still acts like it’s min max or bust.
And Blizzard knew that they had 0 hope of maintaining their dominance when you have titan names who learned from their success and developed their own superior products like FFXIV who otherwise, feature for feature has the better offering EXCEPT mythic+ (which doesn’t exist there) and “maybe” tippy top tier raiding (which I’d debate but isn’t worth it) so they pivoted to cater more and more to that elitist mindset the community happily fosters on themselves and trusting that the decade and more worth of time spent would keep the less capable still subbed thanks to the sunk cost fallacy and not wanting to lose that decade or more worth of time.
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HELL YEAH :D!
The easy specs are the most popular. The stats don’t lie.
Exactly!! The game flourished when it was easier, and every player had a shot at doing the hardest content in the game.
The advocates for hard content on these forums really don’t understand your average gamer.
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Lmao
/10ch
Unfortunately, it’s not a fixable problem from a design standpoint. From a community standpoint, WoW has long been a competitive game and competitive mindsets lead to this zero-sum of either being first or last and optimizing the fun out of a game.
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it actually didn’t. If memory serves, a paltry like <5% actually saw inside Naxx until Wrath brought the raid back. That is an absurdly low ROI from a development point…to invest so much time and resources on things a literal handful get to see/do is just a waste and even an insult to the players paying to prop up a game they’re otherwise gatekept from.
Now sure, there is absolutely NO argument that the game wasn’t insanely easier on an execution level…but you can just join LFR and afk it entirely and still get credit (which also happened in Vanilla especially in MC where you needed like 1/4th of the players to be somewhat present and the warm bodies existing otherwise).
The disconnect is that WoW goes from leveling content being toothless until max level to barely a nub at max level and into queue content to a community-erected sheer smooth vertical steel wall of difficulty once you are past queue group content. It isn’t that the content is mechanically hard…it’s dealing with this trash community who treats even normal raids, barely a notch above LFR in difficulty, like you need 620+ ilvl people with full AOTC to get through it…and similar (and worse) for keys.
But what do you think is going to happen after 20 years of performing that same activity? The average player base is simply better at WoW in 2025 than they were in 2005. If Blizzard were still cranking out Molten Core as the pinnacle of WoW difficulty, do you think the players that were killing Ragnaros in 2005 would still find the game engaging?
Maybe you’re right in terms of bringing newer players into the fold. Perhaps the game allowing everyone to complete the hardest content in the game would be better for anyone looking to get into the game. But what of your existing player base? Should Blizzard knowingly let them walk away after their abilities have surpassed the difficulty of the game 4, 8, 16 years ago?
Maybe Blizzard hasn’t shifted who they are listening to when designing the game. Maybe those same players are simply playing at a higher level than before.
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Actually paladin is a classes that is popular among other games as well.
For example paladin is by far the most popular class in BG3.
M+ is undoubtedly the worst game mode ever invented in the history of the MMORPG genre and should be removed from WoW entirely. PvP can take its place on the vault. M+ is a mini-game with nothing to do with the Lore and is responsible for turning group content into the worst experience World of Warcraft has to offer. Take it out of retail and make it a mobile game. M+ is not fun, Dungeons are not fun. Raids are not fun when tanks overpull trash like they are on a clock causing unnecessary wipes, frustration, and wasted time. The poison spread throughout all group content due to the timer, IO scoring, and the competitiveness M+ brings is immeasurable. The fix is to cut the cord and move away from this incurable sweaty, smelly, and divisive disease.
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Except that 12s are now going to be “required*.”
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- in the sense that a worthwhile reward is being attached to it.
This is a weird example to use. Naxx participation issues were timing of it’s release. The current versions of Classic, Naxx has a great participation.
The game was still growing during this time as well, so Naxx having low particpation really didn’t impact the health of the game. Again, this was a weird example to use.
The difficulty spike in Cata had a very clear impact on the game, it drove the sub numbers down a lot.
Agree here, leveling providing zero challenge is another nod to the hardcore player segment. These people complained they wanted an easier way to level alts, and a faster path to the end game.
WoW used to be a virtual world, but the game has become basically a bad lobby game.
Only if you’re doing above that content anyway.
I don’t agree with their decision to negate key depletion that high up. It’s like their decision to lock legacy flying behind the pathfinder. It’s putting the cart before the horse.
To an extent you are right… but here we have a situation where there’s people who could do the highest level reward content (myth track vaults) and could farm the highest crests in previous seasons and now they no longer can (or seriously struggle to).
It’s moving the goal post in difficulty for rewards where you now have to play at a “lower level” than you did before which feels ridiculously bad.
And that effects everyone and every level except those who were pushing keys far past the max rewards already.
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The point is that this new reward-tier was just added.
So the claim that “there’s no reason to push past 11s” isn’t accurate anymore. You now need all 12s.
Especially when the reward isn’t just a title (which NO ONE cares about except for the 29 people out of 5 million that chase it), but a MOUNT.
And at least this time around, it’s a damn cool looking mount.
Mounts matter. Mounts will push people to engage in garbage content they otherwise wouldn’t.
That isn’t true for derpy titles. I don’t even have nameplates turned on, I wouldn’t see your l33t dewd title, no matter what it is. But everyone goes into town to show off a new mount.