The M+ nerf is good and raiding should always offer the best gear

I mean it just makes it take longer to gear up to what is essentially the floor of entry into heroic and Mythic raids which is why I’m a little bitter about it.

I also don’t feel like it really “solves” anything. Most raiders will still grind out M+ until they are full M+ ilvl. They will still raid heroic because it is the best time/gearing ratio and likely will have at least a few items that are BiS regardless of ilvl. Then jump to the Mythic raid scene if that’s their bag or just hover around the heroic tier indefinitely.

It didn’t actually solve anything though. Just another change for the sake of change that won’t really influence player behavior in any way other than making pug requirements even harder to reach.

I don’t understand the mentality of raiders thinking raiding is harder than m+ and deserves better rewards

Explain to me how something with never ending difficulty scaling is easier than a static mythic raid fight that can be killed with 4-5 members of the raid purely getting carried half the time.

To say raiding is harder than m+ is actually literally impossible due to the fact of never ending scaling.

There is absolutely no argument, that if you take 5 12/12M raiders who have never done m+ and gave them the goal to time a +25 key it would take then a hell of a lot longer to do that than taking 5 5k IO players and having them learn how to clear mythic nyalotha

Expect the population to greatly decease.
Although I am indifferent to the M+ community; due to the requirement of one to give of the Character’s freedom like the raiding community, I could accurately predict the economical fallout from this is not going to look well.

It’s not really the reward I am speaking about, but the purpose which motivates the player into do the content.

For a lot of people slapping infinite scaling on something is the cheapest and easiest way to make anything extremely difficult and it loses a lot of its appeal.

They could slap infinite scaling in war fronts and make them harder than mythic raiding too, but I don’t think many people would care or want it to drop better gear?

By going backwards from the current MMO model and now forcing PvPer’s and Mythic Plus players into doing content they don’t want to do, just to get HEROIC ilvl comparable by raiding in order to stay some what competitive (nerfing their own end game) is one the most moronic things I have seen an MMO game studio do before the release date of their next expansion in awhile…

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Did you do mythic+ in Legion where end of dungeon always stayed 5 item levels under heroic and the weekly chest always 5 item levels under mythic?

Was it super broken and nobody did it then?

The weekly chest being equal to mythic has only even been a thing since 8.3 and it’s staying in SL.

I have read fewer dumber things on the forums then this.

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Because when people talk about i-level and m+ gear rewards those rewards stop at +15 currently. That’s all you have to do to get those weekly i-level 475 rewards. You don’t even have to time the dungeon for pity’s sake. A +15 is not harder than most mythic bosses, especially when you don’t even have to time the dungeon to get mythic raid level rewards. And yes, I’ve spent over 3 hours in m+ dungeons before with my really terrible friends so they could get i-level 475 gear, and they can’t even clear heroic Nyalotha.

I don’t think that ANYONE is arguing that infinitely scalable content at the ridiculous levels (i.e. +25 and higher) is not harder than fixed scaled content. For that matter most of the CE players that I know do both mythic raids and m+ pushing/sales, so it’s disingenuous to separate the two.

This whole expansion heroic raid has been pointless outside of azerite and trinkets because you get better gear from doing dungeons.

Why does there need to be a singular path for gear in this game in your mind?

There should be many paths to get the best possible gear. Raiding is one measure of skill, while M+ and PvP are another. Raiding is about the ability of a group of 20-40 people being on the same page. It’s people management. It’s not a good measure of individual ability outside of a few fights.

The more paths there are to good gear in the game, the more the game opens up for everyone. Funneling the best gear into a single path means a lot of playres are simply left out of the experience.

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I actually agree with you to some extent. I like that there are multiple ways to gearing now, however, when one type of end game content is more rewarding than all the others, then the outlier needs to be toned down. Did they tone it down too much? Possibly, but right now the most effective way to gear is to spam m+ because it has no lockout. All other types of end game content has lockouts. Something needed to change.

Right now mythic+, PvP, and raiding all provide avenues to 475 gear.

The only items above that are a few slots off the last 2 bosses of the raid.

It looks to be the same in SL with 226 gear and the last 2 bosses being 233.

475 (and assumed 226) gear are all weekly lockout gated.

It’s kind of disheartening that so many players currently are raiding just for gear and how selfish those players are to refer to other guild mates as “holding them back”. It’s all about the single player experience in an MMO apparently for lots of m+ “heroes” who think they should dictate how the whole system should be designed.

Is it though?

I spam M+ and only have one piece from an actual dungeon. The gear that matters is from Mythic raiding, 5 mask visions, weekly chest from +15 clear, and 2100-2400+ in arena.

If your aim is to get to 465 fast, then M+ is a great avenue for that, but you’re still miles away from having a good set of gear. You need your corruptions or previously titanforging. You need the right stats. You need azerite pieces which still takes months to earn through residuum.

M+ will get you a good starting setting of gear which is competitive with heroic. Some of the best, even at the 460-465 level is still from raid. Azerite, trinkets, weapons. Many of which are far superior to anything you get from M+.

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10 i-levels is not miles away. It’s going to be even less in Shadowlands. Are you really saying that higher than heroic i-level gear is “a good starting set of gear”? It’s closer to mythic i-level gear than even heroic i-level gear, and again, you don’t even need to time to dungeon to get that gear, and you can spam it endlessly. Meanwhile, raids have a weekly lockout.

Yep yep. And the gear you listed is the gear that really matters in the end. Everything else is just something to get you to that point.

The people here are arguing that some of the best gear is found in M+… which it’s not. While you can get your one chest from the week from doing M+, it has nothing to do with spamming keys which is the issue at hand.

The fact people think it was necessary to not only nerf the drop rate by 500%, but to also nerf the ilvl to be LOWER then heroic says there is a huge misunderstanding of what the value of gear is that M+ provides.

Relative to the expansion, I could see nerfing the gear from mythic dungeons to 460 to match that of heroic gear… but not lower. The fact people feel its necessary to be even lower then that is absurd.

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The 3 item levels under heroic seems to be more based on loot trading restrictions than anything else from what I can tell.

Maybe “saving” hardcore raiders from being “forced” into a big mythic+ spam prior to their heroic splits.

Which of course is dumb and there shouldn’t be an item level req to trade at all from my perspective.

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It is, and if you don’t understand that then you’re not playing the game at a level that matters. I don’t say that as a shot at you, but 10 ilvls, especially relative to corruptions is leagues apart.

For instance… 50% or more of the damage my DH does is from borrowed power. 50%… this has almost nothing to do with ilvl. It’s mostly corruptions and azerite. Well, 10-20% of that is just from Lash of the Void which comes from heroic raiding. Well, what are the chances of you getting the corruption you need from M+? Almost nonexistent. I have ran 100’s of keys and never got a 12% haste or 12% vers corruption.

Should I repeat that?

Were it not for the vendor, despite all the keys I did, I still didn’t manage to get what I needed. Ilvl means almost nothing after a certain point. A 465 player with the right stats and corruptions can out dps a player with 480 gear.

That’s the issue here… people think getting to 460 or 465 matters. Matters to what though? If your aim is to get some shiny purples, then sure, M+ is a good avenue for that. The amount of effort you need to put in to M+ to get ACTUAL good gear that isn’t from the chest that comes from spamming (which is the argument here) is pathetically low.

Nerfing the gear further simply doesn’t make sense.

Some of us are assuming that the nerf has more to do with the world first race then anything else… It has more to do with preventing those guilds from stacking gear to quickly and progressing to quickly by funneling gear from M+ to specific players to push raid.

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Yep yep. Its exactly that. Funny you said it as I was typing it. I was reading on the competitive subreddit and I think that’s the general opinion. M+ was such an easy avenue for guilds to funnel gear quickly to people that they ignored Mythic raids for the first week and just spammed keys.

It’s troubling the game is being balanced around the perceived value of the world first race. I understand they want to slow that process down, but it sucks the rest of us are the casualties.

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Corruption is going away though, and it was a terrible system to implement in the first place. Good riddance imo. I actually agree with you though on a lot of your points, I run mythic raids and I run m+ so I was always fine with the rewards for the most part. The only thing that I am against is the ability to endlessly spam them for higher than heroic raid rewards while all raid difficulties are on a weekly lockout.