If you try to avoid a point by trying to paint me in some light or other instead of addressing the point I will call you out on it. I’ll admit it is unnecessary, as I don’t actually have to point that out, as people can see that for themselves.
I am not here to change anyone’s mind. I come to the forums to have conversations about Night Elf lore. That’s enjoyable for me. If you don’t find it enjoyable, I don’t know why you’re posting in this thread.
As addressed to Kaileath, the Night Elf Empire was more than just the Highborne. In fact, the majority of the Night Elves during that time were likely not Highborne, but, as the Highborne called them (and Nightborne still call them) lowborn. That the Night Elves have regained lore connection to the Highborne is actually relatively new with the inclusion of the Shen’dralar back into Night Elf socieity. That the Nightborne gave the Horde redundant connection to Highborne lore does not take away non-Highborne Night Elf lore that would be more relevant to the playable Night Elves.
The playable Night Elves never did claim connection to the Highborne. The Highborne became Satyr or Naga or ghosts, and they exiled remaining the Highborne that didn’t. If anything, Blood Elves and High Elves have always had more releveance to Highborne lore than Night Elves ever did until the Shen’dralar joined them.
If those ruins were of non-Highborne populations the Nightborne cannot claim relevance to them.
I get good warm feelings from getting to discuss Night Elf lore. As long as you keep proving me the opportunity to do so that’s all I care about.
This is also not true, or at least not necessarily so, as, for example, in the PTR we actually have new exploration Shen’dralar lore coming up:
Night Elf lore is Kaldorei lore.
Lowborne. Highborne.
Its all Night Elf.
There is no division. This is why I call you a purist. You make divisions and categories on what constitutes NE lore and what doesn’t.
Everything from the founding of the Night Elf race, to the breaking and to now that had to do with Night Elves is Night Elf lore. Whether you like it or not.
I never once mentioned a Highborne or made comparisons. You did.
So don’t put words in my mouth like I agree with your idea of separating Night Elves from Highborne.
They are all Night Elves and share the same history lore and civilization.
They were just different social castes within the same civilization.
I did make the distinction. If I didn’t think it was important I wouldn’t be addressing it here to you now. Nightborne have no relevence to current Night Elf lore with Teldrassil, Darkshore, or Ashenvale. Your claim was that the Nightborne were given to the Horde to give them relevance to Night Elf content. And because of the detachment created by this distinction, you are wrong.
All of this is also not true. Night Elves who during the Night Elf Empire lived with Cenarius and continued his ways have no practical shared history with a Highborne that lived in Zin’Azshari and vice versa. Likewise, Nightborne have no relevance to non-Highborne Night Elves.
Ancient Kaldorei lore and current night elf lore are completely different content. Neither should be referenced to justify the lack of attention for the other, as they are different stories.
But … the Nightelves do exactly that. The Highborne civilization is traditionally considered nothing but a flawed relic of their past; best abandoned and moved on from. It was perceived not as a culture to be preserved, but one of decadence that led the world to ruin (and that was reinforced repeatedly with the NEs). Like it or not, the Shen’dralar did little to change that dynamic (and whether they would ever have remains unclear had the Shal’dorei not existed).
All the introduction of the Shal’dorei really did is bring back that lost civilization, one deliberately abandoned by the Kaldorei (and one that was riddled with NOTHING but negative connotations as long as the Kaldorei were the only perspective we’re seeing on that culture). Having additional avenues for stories with various perspectives on cultures should never be portrayed as a bad thing (and I will stand by the fact that it makes total sense that they would immediately grow much closer to the civilization of elves that build their culture in emulation to the Highborne civilization; than the one’s who abandoned that civilization with contempt long ago).
Every piece of lore that now dates back to pre-sundering. IE the ruins from the Kaldorei empire in Ashenvale, Darkshore and etc… now all belong to the Horde’s Shaldorei just as it does to the Kaldorei.
Anything like Valshara or druidic Night Elves with their new stuff is more Current Night Elf lore that Shaldorei have little claim to.
But anything before the sundering? Its theirs too now.
If the Horde did not have relevance in Night Elf content both Shandris or Thalyssra wouldn’t be running around in Zin Azshari seeing familiar faces or recounting events.
That’s what it means to have relevance.
If the Horde did not have the Shaldorei then they could never make those references and would be just sightseers.
It absolutely is.
“The jewel of the Night Elf empire.”
Not Highborne empire. Night Elf.
Nooooot entirely sure I count a reminder of the fact the horde burnt the Azerothian equivalent to the Library of Alexandria to be new lore.
I mean, part of the Shen’dralar story arc is their suffering taught them humility the Shal’dorei 100% lack. They are still their arrogant ancient Highborne selves. That humility was a big part of why Tyrande and Malfurion permitted their return and released the death penalty for sorcery.
No … the Shal’dorei were taught humility and suffering in a way that didn’t risk the destruction of their very culture (which, lets be clear, if the Kaldorei had to ever worry about generational drift it WOULD likely end up consuming what remains of the vestiges of the Shen’dralar culture over time … outside of being a bit more lax on the subject of Elves and Arcane).
Beyond that, the very fact that “the death penalty for sorcery” existed (and its removal was so contentious that Maiev and her watchers attempted to murder every single Shen’dralar refugee (and she faced no punishments for that btw) … should be seen as sufficient justification of WHY its possible the Shal’dorei ended up becoming fast friends with their arcane fangirl cousins they have many shared cultural norms (and interests) with; and not so much with their siblings that up until a few years ago would have executed them for their very way of life (and yeah, that rule was only lifted a few years ago within a race that can hold one hell of a grudge for over 10k).
The Nightborne reinforced everything that was wrong with Highborne society. That we quested with the Nightfallen does not somehow make the mobs we fought in Suramar disappear, and the Nightborne haven’t actually done anything since the success of their rebellion to show that they have changed any from when they were loyal to Elisande. Negative connotations is really all that has been reinforced by the Nightborne.
And yet there are no Nightborne at Ashenvale or Darkshore making any note of the ruins or the ghosts there at. Hence, you are wrong.
That is my point.
Except that most of the Night Elf population and civilization pre-Sundering was not of the Highborne variety, so in relative terms almost none of the pre-Sundering Night Elf locations are relevant to the Nightborne.
Even in regards to the Highborne the Nightborne do not have relevance to all of the other Highborne cities. Only Suramar. For example, the Nightborne have no relevance to Eldre’thar in the Stonetalon Mountains nor the Eldre’thalas in Feralas.
Shandris’ quests were a waste of time. They added nothing of interest to Shandris and were over just as quickly. That was part of what made Nazjatar irrelevant to Night Elf lore. It contributed nothing of value.
The Horde players had no association to Val’sharah, either, yet they quested with Malfurion and Tyrande there. Likewise the Horde quested for a Tortollan to discover the origins of the snapdragons in Nazjatar. If the Nightborne had never been given to the Horde the Horde would have quested in Nazjatar all the same. So your idea that the Nightborne were given to the Horde to have relevance to Night Elf content is unfounded on that front as well.
You didn’t address anything I said, which showed your keyword is not a keyword at all:
Suramar is a single city, not the entire Night Elf Empire, which, again, was mostly not Highborne any way.
What new lore have the Nightborne or Nazjatar presented in BfA?
You are the one that is making that distinction.
Like it or not every single piece of lore or location that pre-dates the Sundering now belongs to both the Nightborne and Night Elves.
Actual physical presence is not a requirement.
This is completely subjective. It contributed story and more nuance and detail we did not have before. I am not going to debate with you how good a content it was in your opinion. You got your opinion and I got mine.
And hence why Blizzard added the Nightborne so that they could.
Hence my point.
I have repeatedly replied to this point approximately 6 times now. I am done repeating myself.
I have but you can’t see anything beyond the parameters you have set upon yourself and thrusting unto others.
The JEWEL of the Night Elf Empire.
This implies it is part of a larger Night Elf Empire as well as place to be admired within it.
Hence a jewel.
When did I say Suramar is the entire Night Elf Empire? Stop putting words in people’s mouths.
I am making that distinction. Physical presence is a requirement, as the Horde are still involved at Darkshore and the involved areas without the Nightborne, hence disproving your point.
What nuance? When Shandris was a child she had a friend. She never new he got cursed. We released him from the curse. He’ll probably never be spoken of again. This is no big reveal or insight or development into Shandris as a character, and even less relevant to the Night Elves as a whole.
And yet Nightborne are not being used to do so on Kalimdor, hence your point is wrong.
And I have repeatedly shown that you are wrong. I would keep repeatedly refuting you even if you did repeat yourself again.
No you haven’t, specifically because your parameters you are trying to thrust forth yourself that Suramar is the entire Night Elf Empire is untrue.
Being admired does not make it larger than it was. It was a single city, not the whole empire.
A recap of what you were responding to:
Those are your own words, not anything I put in your mouth. So once again:
According… to you.
I don’t subscribe to your rules friend so I respectfully disagree.
You want to disagree with my point go ahead but don’t go making rules and then tell people they are wrong because they don’t follow your rules.
He asks as he proceeds to describe the entire scenario…
This like the “These are not the droids you are looking for” Jedi trickery but for lore.
Amadis. For the love of god. Its time to stop.
No you really haven’t you constantly move the goal post. Make your own rules and if anyone does not subscribe to your subjective opinion doesn’t mean they don’t agree with you. They are just wrong.
Since you like quoting so much.
Show me where I literally said Suramar is the entire Night Elf Empire.
Where did I say Suramar is the entire Night Elf Empire?
I said that Thalyssra says “The Jewel of the Night Elf Empire” not “The Jewel of the Highborne Empire”
Hence the connection between the two and how you CAN’T writeoff Suramar as wholly separate from Night Elf Lore.
I’m not making up any rules. I am showing that your idea holds no water. Your claim was that the Nightborne were given to the Horde to have relevance to Night Elf content. The Nightborne are not present on Kalimdor when the Horde are to be involved in Night Elf content. So you are wrong.
To describe that the entire scenario has no nuance or substance or value.
If you would like to explain how it does have any nuance or substance or value you are free to do so. I don’t think you can, though.
See above. All I have done is show that your idea that the Nightborne were given to the Horde to give them relevance to Night Elf content holds no water. I am not making up any rules you have to follow. I am merely calling out that your idea is not true.
So once again you avoid the point that Suramar has no relevance to the parts of the Night Elf Empire that were not Suramar. All Night Elves in the Night Elf Empire did not share the same history or civilization as the Highborne in Suramar, and the Highborne in Suramar did not share the same history or civilization as anyone else in the rest of the Night Elf Empire. It is not wholly separate. It is also in the majority of it not shared.
Yes you are.
Please see the physical presence rule.
I have. You just refuse to read it.
If you are interested in seeing what I said then scroll up and read them again.
I don’t see any point in repeating myself over and over again.
And that is what I have been trying to get through your thick skull.
Btw where is the quote that I said Suramar is the entire Night Elf Empire.
Come on.
Show me where I said that.
That’s not a rule. That’s pointing out that the Horde are invovled in Night Elf lore on Kalimdor without the Nightborne. Hence you are wrong.
Your calling it a rule is just a ruse to avoid acknowledging that you are wrong.
You do realize we can scroll up to do exactly that, right?
You didn’t actually give your take on it at all. And so I posit that you didn’t give your take on it because you can’t actually show that Shandris’ quests had any nuance.
And what I have been trying to get through your skull as well. The Nightborne have no relevance to playable Night Elf content.
You in fact did not literally say that. You implied it at best by linking the cinematic where Thalyssra calls Suramar the jewel of the Night elf Empire. Though if that’s not what you were implying, then you actually made no point at all, and my response still stand:
I never raised any of those points or even pretended to.
You continue to raise them and they have nothing to do with my original point which you have ignored so far.
You are putting words in my mouth and then making your own arguments to prove that I am somehow wrong. You think I am wrong? Well good for you Amadis. I really don’t care.
Go for it.
I did multiple times. It goes to show you don’t even know what I have said on the subject but please by all means point out how there are no nightborne physically in darkshore because that is totally what I said… right?
According to the Night Elf purist? Shocking.
Praise god and all that is holy. Finally the man can admit he is wrong and puts words in people’s mouths.
You are making a point of seperating Highborne and Night Elves in lore to completely seperate entities. I pointed out that Suramar was referred to as the jewel of the Night Elf Empire. Not the Highbrone Empire as you seem to imply.
The fact that you can’t seem to understand this point. Now raised 3 times now really goes to show how much you actually put in the time read and actually understand other’s posts rather than quickly jumping in to just reply with something.
I have not ignored it. I have called it out for being wrong. I have pointed out how the Horde are involved in Darkshore and associated areas without the Nightborne. I have shown that Nazjatar is not relevant to playable Night Elf content. And I have pointed out how the majority of Horde content in Nazjatar doesn’t actually have anything to do with Thaylssra or the Nightborne at all.
If you have a point beyond any of that, it was that it gives the Horde relevance to ancient Night Elf history, but the Nightborne were redundant to that when the Blood Elves already gave the Horde that, so even on that end, the Nightborne were not added to the Horde to give the Horde something new for that purpose as your propose.
I think you care, or you would have stopped responding any of the times you said you were going to.
If you don’t care to share where I missed your take on it then I’ll assume you are fine with my not actually knowing what your take on it is.
Because they are for all practical purposes separate. That is my point.
And I am pointing out that being called the jewel of the Night Elf Empire does not make Suramar relevant to the majority of the Night Elf Empire at all. If you don’t understand that I can’t help you.