The Joy of Roguelikes

Community General Discussion
1

In reading some of the threads about Torghast, it occurs to me that there may be several different visions of what a “roguelike” game is and what people want out of it. So I just wanted to ask you all: what sort of memories (if any) does the term “roguelike” bring up for you and is there a particular aspect of that you are hoping (or fearing) you will find again in Torghast?

My own answer to my question:

I’d not sure if ever played the original rogue, but I did play a lot of the old ascii variations, especially nethack and then later ancient domains of mystery. I may not have wildly fond memories of dying several runs in a row to the first monster I encountered, but I did like the variance, of not knowing how short or long a run would be, of getting to explore and poke around all the nooks and crannies.

Often I’d get overwhelmed in the first level or two, sometimes I’d die to a random trap, occasionally, in my desperation for food, I’d eat something poisonous (one very memorable run ended abruptly upon eating a cockatrice). On rare occasions, the RNG stars would align, the shops would be plentiful and I’d start a deep run.

I never beat the game, I wasn’t even entirely sure there was a way to “win” until my sister beat it after years of trying. My best-ever-run resulted in finding a wand of wishing on a deep apparently dead-end level and on a whim trying to wish for the Amulet of Yendor. Surprised with the result and thinking I’d finished my quest, I made the painstaking climb back to the surface only be rudely informed that I’d abandoned the dungeon with a “cheep plastic imitation of the Amulet of Yendor”.

What I’ve been hoping for ever since I heard about Torghast is that sense of wonder and exploration, of not knowing how deep the rabbit hole goes.

2

Battle Royale are better than PvE Roguelikes tbh.

They’re pretty much the same genre in the sense

3

I wouldn’t have ever thought of comparing a PvP game to a rogue like so I’m curious what memories/experiences you are basing that on?

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4

These are a few of my personal favorite “Roguelike” experiences.

Mega Man 9 & 10 Endless mode

  • Extra, alternate, game mode for fun.
  • Random rooms
  • No timer to push you out or make it harder to progress, go until you can’t go any further for a position on leader boards.

Rogue Legacy

  • Finite world though randomized each time
  • Progressive build up of power that helps you get further each time in addition to power ups in the dungeons themselves.
  • Hero linage system that adds new quirks for each playthrough such as hiding the map, flipping the view upside down, making the world black and white, ect.
  • No forced timer that pushes you out or makes it harder to progress, go until you beat it or can’t progress any further.

Dungeons of Dredmor

  • Finite end point after so long though each playthrough is randomized heavily.
  • Unique class building system/initial customization in addition to crafting, shops, and other means of power ups earned while playing.
  • No forced timer that kicks you out or makes it harder to continue, play as along as you possibly can or reach the end point.

20XX

  • Finite end point’s with some options of choice, though there are extra options to make the areas much much bigger, or more difficult.
  • Long term powerups/upgrades in addition to powerups acquired through normal play.
  • No forced timer that kicks you out, getting through an area quickly however will be more rewarding but nothing that makes it harder to complete if you are not quick. There are also Bonus/Challenge rooms that are either “Don’t take any damage”, “Beat the timer”, etc that reward you for beating optional bonus objectives. The timers are never to your detriment and are only for extra rewards. You keep going until you can not go any further or reach the end.

Binding of Isaac

  • Finite end point each playthrough.
  • Character choice outside to change up initial starting experience.
  • Powerups earned through each playthrough.
  • No forced timer that kicks you out, there are time based events and situations to be more rewarding but nothing that makes the game harder to progress for not going quickly.

These are just a handful of Roguelikes that I have personally really enjoyed through the years, the ones that I like the most, with one of them being an optional play mode to a game that was not designed as a Roguelike. Not a single one of them uses a timer system to make the game harder if you don’t move quickly and those that do have “timer” content are designed to reward you for beating the timer as opposed to punishing you for not moving quickly and they are only in limited sections.

Don’t take me wrong on this, if Blizzard wants to do “special objectives” that require you make it through a certain section quickly for bonus rewards/powers that are timed then sure. The point is, however, none of the Roguelikes I have ever played have ever “punished” you for choosing to take it slower.

That is why I really hate how Blizzard is tackling Torghast, they are tacking on an arbitrary hard limit timer in the way of debuffs that make it harder to progress if you do not move quickly as opposed to timed sections that reward you if you choose to partake in them. There is absolutely a different in how it comes off/feels.

Torghast, in general, should not have a timer. You should be allowed to progress through the floors with as much time as you choose to take to try and get as far as you want. If they want timed content that rewards players for choosing to do it then it should be optional side rooms.

Something like a closed door that you click and it tells you “This is a challenge room, you have limited time to get through this but if you complete it you will be rewarded with an Anima power!” that either has a “Survive the waves” or “Race to the end through the traps” or such. Something that you willfully have to activate/start while the primary portions of the floors can be done at whatever pace you choose.

Heck, even add optional rooms to skip floors at the cost of some of your Anima powers of your choice. Maybe you start a floor, and near the start is a portal that will let you skip the floor but at the cost of anima powers.

The thing about Roguelikes isn’t going fast, its about strategy. Its about weighing the risk/reward of each situation.

The way Blizzard is choosing to tackle this is all wrong and I think they should look at other Roguelike games and see what makes them work instead of constantly falling back on the idea of “Lets put a timer on it!” There are so many other ways this could be handled.

The primary difficulty of Torghast should be progressing deeper, not racing a timer that makes it arbitrarily harder. What’s the point of it being infinite if they are going to tack a timer on anyway.

What do I hope for? They look at previous Roguelikes and how they reward/incentivize doing certain tasks, how they mix up each play through to be more unique/random, that they let players move at the pace that suits them.

What do I hope they don’t do? Don’t tack on systems that make you feel forced to go quickly in general. Having side sections that are timed for extra rewards, sure. Roguelike games are not races, they are strategic marathons not short sprints.

13 Likes
5

For me:

The Binding of Isaac:
The most fun I’ve had in this game is seeing how different items would change my run and how they would interact. For example, an item that’s normally a hindrance without any support (the Tiny Planet) becomes extremely powerful when paired with items that fundamentally change the way your tears work, such as the Brimstone becoming a circular death beam or the Technology becoming circular laser that still has the range it used to.
Not only that, unlocking new items that will appear in future runs, as well as new characters to play as that have different stats, along with new areas and bosses, gives the game a ton of life. It prolongs everything and keeps the game from getting too stale.

Nuclear Throne:
Nuclear Throne relies very little on RNG. There is some with the mutations after leveling up and the gun drops you get, but there’s little variation in those mutations so you almost always know what you’re getting when you pick one up, as well as what you should keep your eye out for as you progress. Overall, it’s a much more skill-based Roguelike, and if you’re good enough you can overcome poor RNG.

Spelunky:
I honestly never cared for Spelunky, but unlocking shortcuts and the idea of being able to make progression beyond each individual run/ a new skin for your character is really cool.

Dead Cells:
The combat is to die for. The music is great. The animations are great. It has unlockables and a progression system. It manages to stay very skill-oriented while still able to mix in RNG for interesting and varied runs. A really cool feature is that it rewards you for playing well. As you progress through a run, you’ll come across timed doors. After a certain amount of time has elapsed, the door shuts. If you’re quick, you can make it before the door shuts and get an item that can be a serious boon to you. However, it’s not worthwhile to risk your entire run for just one item, so you never feel pressured to actively try for it. It’s more a way to remind you that you’re making good pace and doing a good job, and it adds that little “oomph” to your build when you may need it.

6

recommend Hades.

Sure, it’s early access but it feels like a complete game, The art is great, the humor and characters are so good that you almost don’t mind dying because you get to interact with them some more.

medusa is an adorable floating head cleaning girl that is fangirling over your character and you can pet Cerberus, what more could you want?

7

I’m also incredibly curious as to how large scale pvp games on fixed maps are essentially the same as dungeon crawler random level generated things…

1 Like
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Does the original Oregon Trail count?

But really though, I don’t have a lot of experience with roguelikes. What seems to be a pretty common denominator, though, is that there’s a definite chance of failing and losing your run if luck isn’t in your favor, but any given run is fairly disposable, so the fact that we’re looking at keys for Torghast concerns me.

My worry is thus: Torghast is randomly generated. Your anima powers will be randomly provided throughout the run. You may or may not end up with a set of good powers, and that may or may not result in your run ending prematurely. If you can just get right back into the action afterwards, that’s not a huge problem. But if you’ve only got a limited number of keys per week, then there are two possibilities. One, you can get screwed by anima RNG and “waste” one of your finite runs. Two, Torghast is tuned so gently to prevent the first problem that we end up in a warfront scenario, where failure isn’t really possible and all you need to do is walk to the finish line and collect your prize. To me, the second outcome would be far worse, but both are to be avoided.

2 Likes
9

Binding of Isaac is the first game I think of when “Roguelike” is mentioned. Darkest Dungeon is a distant second. Funnily enough, Binding of Isaac does have a time limit, which is optional, and if you meet the timer you get access to a boss rush room that gives you an option of some powerful loot.

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I don’t like starting over unless it’s a new expansion

11

You start off with nothing every game and go out to collect the items to win

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Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, the series.
A seriously underrated game, but a masterpiece.
Especially Explorers of the Sky.
That game got seriously dark and absolutely emotionally destroyed me for a Pokemon game.


Granted, sometimes I’d do dumb stuff and pay the price, like willfully triggering a Monster House, or overstay my welcome on a floor and get whisked out by the “Mysterious force” but the game was is undeniably fun.

whoops, linked the 30m version

13

I still don’t know what a Roguelike game is; even though i’ve heard of this genre, and i’ve probably played some without realizing it.

I’ve been playing video games for so long i just gloss over genre’s at this point.

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Literally none. Torghast is my first encounter with such a design, and considering the feedback for it trends positive, I think I might just have a grand time with it.

15

I mostly play Roguelike or Roguelite games. WoW is an incredibly easy game that takes a huge amount of time. I have very little time and I like a challenge, so Roguelike/lite games which can be very quick session runs, are just fantastic for me. Timing aside, the games are just great fun.

I think my steam library is mostly roguelike/lite games.

Edit: I just realized I didn’t answer the question… I just got excited about talking about Roguelike/lite games. :smile:

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16

Still waiting for someone to explain with roguelike means

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Generally a roguelike is a game that you start, play and don’t gain strength or ability and don’t have a save point. Meaning you either make it to the end of the game or you don’t and if you don’t you start all over. Roguelite are much more forgiving, and generally give you some sort of character progression but with a restart. So, you might get a bit stronger but you’re right back at the beginning after death.

My explanation might not be super great. Eh, I’ll try again…

RogueLike
WoW, but you don’t gain levels, and if you die you start over at level 1(in this case the beginning of the game or starter area) (generally)

Roguelite
Wow, you gain levels, you progress, gain items and such, and if you die you start over at level 1 (generally)

There’s obviously a ton of variation on this, but I hope you get the idea.

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18

I’m guessing, based on reading some people explain roguelike and roguelite that it has to do with the fact if you jump into say a game of PUBG, you play until you die or win then start all over on the same map with no gear.

At a high-level, that explanation makes sense to me. I’ve played a few BR games but never played a Roguelike game that I’m aware of.

19

:rofl:

yeah… yeah… The same spoke of the MOBA, and the RTS, and tell me where is it now?

It seems that the Roguelike may be the next generation in gameplay but you have to see if it will be very successful for Blizzard, although Torghast is spectacular including extras.

don’t forget Plant Vs Zombies infinite suvirvar

and Dead cells indie game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CZ1nmuGbSw
20

Yeah, kinda. The comparison to those types of games isn’t unfair. PUBG has some Roguelite elements in it, though it isn’t really a rogue game.

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