I think that the factions are currently stuck in a horrible cycle where neither side is happy.
The Alliance started out with more land and more characters, so neutral factions (Dalaran, Argent Dawn/Crusade, Cenarion Circle) draw from their land/themes. This both shoves Alliance themes in Horde players’ faces, and makes Alliance feel like they’ve lost something to stay even with the Horde.
Because of this starting imbalance, the Horde gained necessary territory at the expense of the Alliance during Cata. These areas can’t be reclaimed by the Alliance without recreating the imbalance and requiring more Horde conquests to even things out again, which would just restart the cycle.
These set up a scenario where the Alliance feels like they’re way behind in score compared to the Horde, but victories over the Horde which could be expressed in the game world are unlikely and often counterproductive.
And then there’s the portrayal of Alliance victories. Elegy did a very good job of setting up exactly why the Alliance is burning (hah) for revenge, but that revenge is… letting Sylvanas nuke her evacuated city. Then getting in a protracted war in Darkshore, where they couldn’t prevent the raising and defection of their dead, nor could they kill Nathanos even after a deity’s powerup. Then raiding a Horde city, killing an NPC they were trying to get to surrender, and pushing them further into the arms of the Horde. But at least we got naval superiority! …until the fleet get destroyed before the Alliance can even win one good battle against the Horde with it. These don’t leave the Alliance player with a sense of victory.
At the same time, theses Horde losses still sting the Horde players. They’ve lost a city, failed to destroy the invaders of another city, lost their fleet, lost a cool character in Rastakhan, and lost a bunch of characters to the villain and stupid bats for this whole war plot.
So neither side is happy, and there’s no easy way out of it.
But she got to get off a quip before she evacuated and set off her ineffective bond villain trap, that totally negates the Alliance steamrolling their way through everything we put up to stop them. Especially since by blowing up Lordaeron she killed all those alliance leader… oh wait, no, all those Alliance troops that got pulled back to Brill… wait, it’s almost like horde completely and utterly lost there. That can’t be right.
Sylvanas used the city for her own purposes. If it was the Alliance that captured/destroyed the place then you would have a point.
The only difference here is the Alliance had no agency. Sure they put up a good defence but in the end the Horde was triumphant.
Then why is Andiun helpless in stopping the Horde? Why is Genn telling us there are no more soldiers and we have to grab the farmers?
Yeah despite being at a disadvantage the Horde is unstoppable as far as Andiun and all Alliance leaders are concerned.
I’ve seen this point a few times, but, is there really a shortage of Horde characters? Garrosh was an extra character, you could compare him to Bolvar, I suppose. Cairne was replaced with Baine. Vol’jin’s back, as long as they don’t forget to continue his story, and they really should just name Rokhan leader. Kael’thas was replaced by Lor’themar (and got extra characters like Rommath and Liadrin out of it, too).
Doesn’t seem like there are actually that many missing Horde characters to me.
Horde was there, too. It wasn’t just Vol’jin. Sylvanas, Lor’themar, Vol’jin, Baine, Ji, Gallywix, Eitrigg, Saurfang, and Thrall all came out in the fight against Garrosh. That’s the entire leadership of the Horde that wasn’t Garrosh.
We’re talking about Story, though. The Story being written for Gameplay is still the Story.
I would be enough if Saurfang and the rebels came to help the Night Elves take their lands back to start atonement for the War of the Thorns in a join Battlefield: Ashenvale event.
Instead it’s looking like we’ll get Battlefield: Mulgore instead.
I can completely see this being true.
Doesn’t this apply to all the Horde fan who sympathize with the Night Elves fans but don’t want any repercussions for the Horde?
And look at the lack of Draenei content now in BfA. Everyone gets a turn at being irrelevant to the story at one point or another. Obviously some less than others. What I like about the Night Elves is how much content we’ve gotten for them, but even they, for example, had a disappearing act in Wrath of the Lich King.
Malfurion wasn’t even around to pressure them! Maiev was talking nonsense. Fandral trapped Malfurion in the Emerald Dream before he even grew Teldrassil. Malfurion wasn’t able to return until the events of Stormrage, but then at that point Nozdormu had been missing since Classic, and so was not around to bless Teldrassil in Stormrage like Alexstrasza and Ysera did. Nozdormu only finally returned in Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects, but used up all his powers along with the other Aspects to defeat Deathwing.
Malfurion was narratively never in a situation where he turned down Nozdormu’s blessing, rather Nozdormu was just never around to offer it until Thrall’s wedding defeating Deathwing took priority.
This is why I don’t read Hetaera’s posts.
We already have Feralas and Feathermoon Stronghold.
Please. No. I hate this suggestion every time it comes up. Dire Maul is literally a hole in the ground.
And this comes from someone Exalted with the Shen’dralar.
Ion Hazzikostas: We've had Horde and Alliance that kicked off this expansion just over a month ago with massive battles, massive war. And Alliance really suffered a number of heavy losses throughout that process. Of course the tree of Teldrassil was burned down. They thought they had the upper hand at the Battle for Lordaeron, the Undercity, but defeat was snatched from the jaws of victory as the Horde left the city in ruins behind them.
I’m fairly sure the only way I will ever not be disgusted by Nathanos staying alive is if he’s the one that stabs Sylvanas in the back and kills her after everyone else has systematically killed off all of her Val’kyr.
But to be clear, the post I agree the most with in this thread is Caedmun’s and posts like it:
Because the war is more than one battle? The whole we’ll be pulling up farmers next was the set up for 8.1, the war had been going on since then battles are being fought and attrition takes its toll.
Saurfang in the previous cinematic was telling zappy boi that the Alliance numbers are simply too much for them to possibly stop.
Why is suddenly the faction with numerical superiority the one strapped for manpower? it makes no sense.
Unless of course the Horde is so dang powerful that 1 orc equals a hundred regular men.
Concentrated on one point (Lordaeron) the Alliance was able to field an overwhelming army.
Later, after that battle, the actions that are represented by island expeditions and warfronts, the continuing incursions into Zuldazar and defense against attacks on Kul’Tiras. Countless battles over a world wide front the Alliance forces are looking at maybe needing to start a draft as their professional army is being whittled down. (which after the raid that that cinematic was leading up to turned into “HA! we could win this thing in a couple weeks!/Crap, the Alliance is a few weeks away from defeating us.”)
Well considering that Goblins are getting their long-awaited model update next mini-patch, it’s only safe to assume the Gilgoblins are going to be updated alongside them.
Which in that case, I’d much rather roll a Gilgoblin than a Vulpera. Its only been a week and I absolutely love Neri, Vim, and Poen as my bodyguards, especially with Neri and her rules of survival that are nothing more than basic guidelines on how to “not” die.
It’s also cool to have sea giants/sprogs and Makura that aren’t trying to kill you, and having literal giants on the Horde would not only be incredibly valuable but cool af.
I just feel like Vulpera, particularly Nisha, tries WAAAYY too hard to be intimidating and ends up coming across as being incredibly cringeworthy. Kiro seems like a much better representative of them as he’s crafty and cunning, like what should be expected out of literal vulpine humanoids/fox people.
That’s just my take on the matter, the Unshackled just seem more battle ready while most Vulpera are traders and scavangers. That’s not to say they’re bad, I’d still dig it if they became an allied race, just stating why I like Unshackled better.
She lost it on her terms. If she wanted to actually win the siege she would have chosen Silvermoon or Orgrimmar rather than a blasted ruin.
The Horde and its players push out the Alliance and grievously injure two leaders.
And by those actions secure the Zandalari as their full fledged allies.
I don’t see how the Horde came out bad in this scenario expecially considering 8.2 and what happens to this super awesome fleet.
Vulpera. I like the Gilblins, but they don’t…scratch the same itch the Vulpera do. Probably because their models compared to the Vulpera are a far lesser quality and I doubt the Goblin model update will extend to them.
I think the Unshackled and Vulpera are both extremely good fits from a story perspective, but the Vulpera have more of a reason to ‘roll’ Red team so to speak.
I … sort of agree. The Kelpin are actually far more charming than I thought they would be. If they also get a more streamlined (yet Goblin based) facial structure, I could almost see them being fairly cute (to match their shockingly cute personas). The fact that they would also bring in such a range of Monstrous Aquatic races as NPC Horde races (just like the Mag’har did) would be particularly tempting. On top of this (just like with Junker Paladins), Blizz could absolutely justify Gral taught Kelpin druids (and just imagine what their druid forms might be).
For a more on-topic response: I think the Alliance needs a solid, in-game, planned, Alliance-only, non-countered victory over -Sylvanas’- Horde.
Leave the Horde player out of it. Let them be busy working with the Horde on a different front, earning their own victories there. This could even happen during the Horde’s rebellion stage against Sylvanas, which would be better on most Horde players, but this scenario should not involve cooperation. (That should come later, assuming this plot will eventually end with the cessation of the faction war, but the Alliance should get one victory first without needing the Horde to help them.)
Basically, the Alliance needs a scenario where they can win -because of- their actions, rather than -despite- them.
Let the Alliance plan for Sylvanas’ blight, rather than completely shocked and unprepared as she uses her signature weapon once again. Let the Alliance seem competent in battle strategy, rather than facing failure after failure only salvaged thanks to unplanned Jainas or Allierias showing up with unforseen counters to Sylvanas’ strategies. Let the Alliance show up in time to stop the val’kyr from raising their dead into willing Horde conscripts this time - and perhaps counter the val’kyr’s escape plan instead of watching them fly away. And I think this fight should include plenty of non-Forsaken Horde forces, but not rebel sympathizers. If peace is really the goal, throw in the mages/shaman who burned Teldrassil so there’s no question of the player’s Horde containing them.
The Alliance needs a compelling victory, but the Horde player doesn’t need another loss. I hope there’s some way to deliver both.
Not devastated, yet losing a home battle is “devastating”, but… Varian is dead. His promises of ‘we will end you’ is unlikely to come to fruition.
Ultimately, I think BFL is about as “satisfying” as WOT. Which is to say, neither were really all that satisfying.
Full Disclaimer: I main NE. I remember when shadowmeld didn’t break until end of cast. I remember hunting that spider boss mob in the NE start zone near the edge of the tree. I remember falling a long way down the branch and dying. I remember when getting a group for BFD was a pita because majority of alliance went EK for questing and it was easier to progress doing Deadmines --> Stockades --> Gnomer. And by then you out-leveled BFD so it was onto Scarlet Monastery.
So there’s my NE “credentials”.
Now for some pragmatic truth. The Horde aren’t exactly heroes in their game, either. I’ve played the Warcraft Universe since WC1 on DOS, and while the whole “noble savage” angle caught me off-guard, it was Metzen’s and Blizzard’s game and their vision. But there’s nothing “noble” in the Horde (and hasn’t been for quite some time). Now some Horde players don’t care about their faction’s narrative, but they’re usually the ones that think its edgy to talk about an opponent’s mother’s private parts. I would safely bet that the majority of the story forum, and those that care about Warcraft lore and literature, are of higher emotional maturity. So for your compatriots on this forum, at least, take solace in knowing that your fellow Horde lore fans are just as unhappy as you are.
A common complaint on both sides has been they’ve lost something. And in order to regain what they lost, the victim wants to take something from the aggressor. I’m sure if they’re dedicated enough someone can make an exact accounting of each side’s strikes and scores, and yeah, the Alliance probably lost more than won. But it doesn’t take a genius to see that this is not a self-sustaining system. Sooner or later the game will reach a critical point where you simply run out of things to lose (and many already argue here that we’ve hit that point).
Which is why making the Horde “lose big” is just another symptom of the underlying disease. And while my NE mains would relish and enjoy that story direction, its blatantly obvious this post topic isn’t really in good-faith. If its simply a vessel for cathartic ranting, then sure, have at it. After all, who I am to begrudge someone else’s stress relief.
Personally, I always though Blizzard has been wrong from Classic by trying to make the world smaller when they should be expanding. I always thought each nation should be their own faction. This would allow all races to retain their own uniqueness, while allowing far more room for drama/conflict/skirmishes, etc. And for those who want a war-centric game, each race/nation can make their own alliances, and you would have multiple wars throughout Kalimdor and EK. The original battlegrounds (WSG, AB, AV) were this idea, but Blizz never really developed it further.
I don’t want to hijack someone else’ thread, so I won’t go further into what I think Blizzard can do to make the story (and gameplay) more appealing. But something to keep in mind:
Many people here on the story forums also RP. Many read the WoW books. Many can cite specific quest lines and lore facts. Many care about the WoW story and lore aspects to far greater degree than the general public. If you were to talk about the things here out in the real world, its not far fetched to assume that you would be given weird looks and be ridiculed and called names. But the people these forums, even if they play the other faction, still share a common passion and interest with you. So keep that in mind next time you ask another player to suffer as you have.