I’m not gonna rewrite everything I said. You go and read again and try figuring out why back then, on that specific thing (aka Teldrassil) no one had any means to know Sylvanas would commit a war crime.
Why are you asking me this? I’m not the one writting this thing. Neither you or me have this power, wich makes this question utherly pointless.
Not even by far. Again. Go. Read. The. Lore. You have a ridiculously black and white mindset that is not compatible with this story. You can roleplay that Alliance are angels and Horde are Satan encarnated, but don’t pretend for a second that we normal people have to swallow it, much less accept it. You are delusional if you think that’s how it works.
Hence. The entire rescuing Bane thing and you if you chose to side with Saurfang. Again…ignoring facts won’t help your case.
My issue is not what they did BEFORE Teldrassil (except Saurfang) but what they did AFTERWARDS.
And yeah your arguments fall flat on their face.
I am asking you because I want to figure out what the Horde’s punishment needs to be. IE the whole point of this entire thread.
Just stating facts and all you got is “read the lore”.
How is rescuing Baine any sort of indication of what the Horde leader’s stand on what Sylvanas has done TO the Alliance?
Why is Baine’s arrest going way too far for all these Horde characters that beg you to rescue him but not a single peep on what Sylvanas has done to the Alliance so far?
Then you should have said so before. And what they did afterwards? You had the Undercity battle, then Dalar’zor where guess what? Horde lost all of them. Every single thing the Horde did on the war campaign was nullified. And Baine flat out screwed Sylvana’s plan by delivering Derek Proudmore back to Jaina. So there you go.
Also Saurfang was orchestrating a rebelion from within with ANDUIN’s BLESSING might I add.
And just now Baine was rescued from prison, and Lorthemar and Thalysra kinda know Sylvanas sent them to die.
So yes…this happened, wich points to every single horde leader going against Sylvanas.
[quote=“Hetaera-sargeras, post:383, topic:219103”]
Just stating facts and all you got is “read the lore”.
Your ‘facts’’ are based on assumptions that come from your need to think you are the moral highground cause you play the blue team.
Honey? Challenging the crazy tyrant is pretty much a statement that they don’t agree to what she did and are willing to depose her before she does any more bad things.
Also dude what you want? A mass ressurrection spell for every elf? People in Teldrassil are already dead, there’s nothing you can do about it. What the characters are doing is trying to prevent Sylvanas from killing who’s actually alive.
I understand.
However your premise is that the Horde leadership are “good” and Sylvanas’ actions in noway represents them.
Ok. Why is it that after Sylvanas did her thing TO THE ALLIANCE they were not immediately disgusted and starting to leave?
Why do I not see this good part of the Horde?
Why does the Horde only move when they are losing? As seen by your own words below?
Um so what?
Again so what?
Yes. Because Sylvanas acted AGAINST THEM. She betrayed THEM.
THATS WHY they are finally moving against her.
This is no moral dilemma like Saurfang had where they felt so conflicted, so disgusted that they either ran away or confronted Sylvanas for what she did TO THE ALLIANCE and NOT HER OWN PEOPLE (Derek the Forsaken).
Do you understand? Do you understand when I say the Horde leaders besides Sylvanas only take action when they are losing or betrayed?
They only challenge when she moves against them. They don’t give a rat’s butt what she does to other people.
Whatever I say you will reject because you don’t want what the Horde did to the Alliance.
But I will settle for a cinematic, Movie quality like Saurfang’s of the Alliance retaking Darkshore, Ashenvale and Azshara zones.
Partial destruction of Orgrimmar and complete rebuilding of these 3 zones in NE style so no Horde can ever invade ever again. Because they will. Its in their nature.
Oh and both Saurfang’s and Sylvanas’ heads.
[quote]Ok. Why is it that after Sylvanas did her thing TO THE ALLIANCE they were not immediately disgusted and starting to leave?
Why do I not see this good part of the Horde?
Why does the Horde only move when they are losing? As seen by your own words below?
[/quote]
Oh god give me patience. You didn’t ‘‘see the good’’ cause you’re solely ignoring Baine helping Jaina getting her brother back, you’re ignoring Saurfang rebeling, you’re ignoring Thrall trying to fix things, and you never played a Horde character so all you have is this cartoonish caricature in your head.
That’s why.
I’m getting the feeling, your answer to an argument you can’t refute is ‘‘So what’’ so you don’t face the fact you’ve been proven wrong.
[quote]This is no moral dilemma like Saurfang had where they felt so conflicted, so disgusted that they either ran away or confronted Sylvanas for what she did TO THE ALLIANCE and NOT HER OWN PEOPLE (Derek the Forsaken).
Do you understand? Do you understand when I say the Horde leaders besides Sylvanas only take action when they are losing or betrayed?
[/quote]
Again. If you have played the Horde and if you had actual knowledge before you decide to defecate trough your fingers, you would know they and all other horde leaders had a talk voicing their concerns waaay before Sylvanas acted against them.
Wich you can see / read here (there’s a space between https: and the rest because for some reason the forum won’t allow me to post links): https ://pt.wowhead.com/news=290010/horde-leaders-react-to-baine-broadcast-text-from-8-1-5-ptr-build-29220-spoilers
So…yeah they are not this evil, caricature of cartoonish evilness you want to paint them as. So…like I said. Star playing Horde a bit, try and actual KNOW their side before passing judgement cause all you are doing is embarassing yourself here.
Its like we are both talking about the same thing.
Except you decide these are clear signs of how great and good the rest of the Horde is and I just see it as just Horde being self interest as always.
They do that themselves. I don’t need to do anything.
Strawman arguments again? Come on…you can do better than that.
I never said Hordes are imaculated saints. But they are not this demoniac, puppy beating cartoon villains you think they are.
You do know there’s something called gray area right? The world is not black and white. All you have to do is a little more research and get out of your blue confort bubble.
I tried making a couple Horde characters once. One of them was a Forsaken Warlock. I certainly felt demonic and given some of the quests I was being given in the first couple zones I could see my commanders being into puppy beating.
In all seriousness though, I agree with you. The Horde is not 100% irredeemably evil. But, they do seem more likely to do terrible things for flimsy reasons to the Alliance than the other way around. Yeah, members of the Horde feel bad about it but that doesn’t help the Alliance that much. From the Alliance point of view, the Horde is just once step down from the Void Lords or the Burning Crusade in terms of being a potential threat to their people.
Its one of the reasons we need Thrall back. For better or worse, factions generally key off their leaders in terms of the story telling. When the Horde’s current leader has a stated objective (albeit in a book) of “wipe out the Alliance capital and raise them all as zombies” (to paraphrase), well…
Yes, sadly, yes you are. Not that I enjoy as such.
I wrote up a hypothetical scenario years ago where (and you’ll see the lore issues now) a descendant of Garithos crops up, rallies disaffected dwarves, dark irons, league of Arathor, Stormpikes, Worgen, and former Scarlet members and launches unprovoked attacks on Horde encampments all across Lordaeron. They do so successfully, gaining massive political popularity in Stormwind, while they carefully launch a coup that has mercenaries and bandits paralyze Stormwind’s food supply and trade, rendering the Wyrnn dynasty politically isolated before taking over.
The “good” Alliance who figures out what is going on is forced to team up with the Horde in order to literally have the Horde attack and retake their own capital, against even some popular support, to put an end to the pointless warmongering that will only end in total war.
I presented my arguments. You just never addressed them.
All you have done is repeat yourself and insult me which makes your arguments incredibly weak.
Everything you have shown I already addressed. The Horde only moves when their warchief moves against them. Only when Baine gets arrested do Horde leaders say anything. Only when he is about to be executed do they openly defy Sylvanas. Baine only moved because Derek, a Forsaken, was being tortured for unethical reasons.
None of these has ANYTHING to do with Teldrassil or what the Horde is actively doing to the Alliance simply because they don’t care. Was Baine outraged at Teldrassil? Was Lorthemar disgusted with Brennadam? Where Thalyssra or Mayla disgusted that Goblins and Forsaken are blighting all of Darkshore?
Horde may not be demonic legion level evil but they are certainly selfish and uncaring of what happens to anyone that isn’t Horde.
Not until they start to lose or in trouble… thats when the “honor” horde finally crawls out of the woodwork. Hell Thrall or Saurfang ever even apologize in the new cinematic. Not a simple “I am sorry”. Nothing.
In a way, this does kind of make the Horde an interesting faction. Sometimes I get the sense that the Horde is made up of an uneasy alliance of groups that are basically good people (Tauren, Trolls) that depend on the strength of basically evil people (Forsaken, Goblins, Orcs sometimes) to give them enough power to stand up to the Alliance. You can see this in scenes like the victory dinner after Legion. This isn’t the Alliance where all the faction leaders are buddies. These people don’t all trust or even like each other. Just like the tribal chiefs of the original Orcish Horde. So when one group, like the Forsaken, does something horrible it makes the Tauren feel bad but looking the other way is the price they are paying for Forsaken assistance. The Horde likes to talk about honor because it makes them feel better and its the idealized standard they would like to meet, but maybe their core identity is making hard (and ethically questionable) choices to ensure their survival, even if it comes at the expense of others. They see themselves as vulnerable misfits in a harsh world and if they have to do terrible things to carve out a space for their people, then they’ll do it.
I don’t think we need to have a loss of a capital city since both Undercity and Teldrassil are gone. But I do believe having something akin to Cataclysm’s giant hole, or a form of real damage that feels impactful could change that perception.
I could imagine if Orgrimmar was hit and its geography changed; it could completely move players. Perhaps causing a section of the Valley of Honor to collapse. Perhaps break the hell out of the Warchief’s hut, which would be easily recognizable too.
You don’t need to completely destroy a city to make someone angry. Orgrimmar getting damaged would leave a very sour taste to Horde players, especially if it also claims the life of an NPC in mind.
Allegedly there is one. Outside the city, where we catch the ship to Vash’jir’s intro (other quests have you ship out from there too, but I’m drawing a blank on them). Iunno why they can’t just knock down some mountains along the coast between Orgrimmar and the ocean, but there is one.