Yeah ‘‘We are the great, noble, opressed HEROES of this thing! So let’s show how noble, awesome and righteous we are by KILLING EVERYONE because of the actions of one mad Warchief and a bunch of dumb loyalists’’
Can’t see the issue on that line of tought.
I said it once and I’m gonna say it again:
You can’t hold every single living being who happens to be born and live in Horde territory accountable for the madness of a warchief and a small group of loyalists.
But if you need a more concrete example of the flaws in your logic then let’see…
Should ALL germans be held accountable for Hittler’s actions? Even the ones who where kids back then?
Should ALL europe be held accountable for the native american genocide?
Should ALL US citizens be considered guilty for decimating Iraq and Afghanistan?
The answer any normal person would give is ‘‘no’’. Because guilt is a matter of ACTIONS, if you had nothing to do with the thing, if your hand wasn’t on said bad thing, you can’t be guilty of it.
Transporting that to a more personal ground. Should a murderer’s father be held formally accountable by his son’s actions?
No. Guilt is a PERSONAL thing, not something you can dilude and spread in a nation filled with different people. Thinking like that is childish.
Same way we can’t hold every single player / civilian on the Alliance’s side for imoral actions done by those in command, you can’t do the same with the Horde. It’s mere logic and common sense.
horde lost undercity, and in 8.1 lost in battle of dazal’alor and king rhastakan, additionally many horde are working against sylvannas
You mean the entire Horde army and all Horde nations continued servitude to this Warchief for the past 2 patches not to mention this is the third time the Horde has went crazy since its inception in Kalimdor?
Yeah they are all monsters that have no redeemability narrativewise.
The only reason they are still around is because of an MMO.
It’s depressing to see that Blizzard’s writing for this expansion has started to drive horde players to compare their own faction to the Axis Powers as a defense on why not every single person should be held responsible for the leadership. What a wonderful expansion.
You mean the leaders of nations who had no choice in the matter? And could not predict how crazy Sylvanas really is? Or are you seriously telling me Baine, Thalysra and Lorthemar could just defect without any kind of retaliation? You do know that when you lead a nation, lives are depending on you right?
Like seriously, you’re trying to flat out demonize everyone because they are not mind readers and wheren’t willing to risk their entire people without backup or a plan b.
Also I love how you conviniently ignore the fact that at this moment Lorthemar, Thalysra, Baine, Saurfang and Thrall are actively oposing her.
Remember in Siege of Lordaeron when the entire Alliance came after Sylvanas?
They could have just said “Lol. You are on your own Sylvanas.”
Each faction leader can go back to their respective city and not move an inch outside of it and Sylvanas would have been gone.
Boom done. BFA is over and we can all move on.
Way, way too late my dude.
We had to destroy their navy, be at the very precipice of victory for them to finally decide its time to give up. You know. Like Garrosh.
Horde leaders only find their moral fiber when they are about to lose.
Errr no. Cause you know. There’s SILVERMOON not that far away? And having Undercity was of great strategic value for the Blood Elves?
Also not too late, it wasn’t back on Garrosh it isn’t now. You just think it is, cause you want to move this ''Horde are the devil yo!" narrative for emotional satisfaction, when reality is not like this.
Yup…someone NEVER read any of the books and probably never played a Horde character, or else you would know it’s not that simple. Should I wait for you to think on other strawman arguments to edit your post or is it over?
Horde leaders do have a tendency to act conflicted while their forces attack the Alliance and maybe after the attacking is done they decide its time for the Warchief to go, but I can see how the Alliance could find that a cold comfort.
Um so what? the entire Alliance army was at her gates. What can she possibly do to Silvermoon?
I don’t see how that is relevant to protecting and fighting for WoW Hitler.
Why not? Protected Sylvanas after Teldrassil and still fought for her after she abandonned Lordaeron in another nuking.
Why are you giving so many passes for the Horde and their inaction?
They are.
See Dreanor, SW, WoD and much much more.
If I read the books should I reference the time that Garrosh brought Theramore Civilians for a mass execution as entertainment for the Orgrimmar citizens?
No but you are right. Horde is not evil.
Honey? It is relevant because it’s the ONE THING separating an enemy army from YOUR CITY. Or are you saying Lorthemar should just go.
‘‘Oh let’s let them have Undercity and move their troops to my city. Ok that my people won’t be able to resist the Alliance’s might on it’s own and the Horde will consider me a traitor and I’m gonna be all alone. But at least I’m morally right!’’
Wake up honey! That was necessity not morals. Morals don’t matter if you’re dead.
Are you trolling here? It’s never too late to rebel against a tyrant. And if you think there’s a time limit to it, I really hope your country never feel the horror that is going trough a Dictatorship.
Honey…go read the lore. Cause you just admited you’re here trying to argue something you know only 40% of it.
Oh you mean the tyrant we deposed with the help of people in the Horde wich destroys completely your ‘‘all horrdes are evil!’’ argument, cause like…there are clearly non evil hordes out there, who are pretty famous, and relevant, and are participating in trying to depose Sylvanas.
But what do I know? You are the great hero! That’s why you’re just gonna slap the ‘‘evil’’ label on everyone and murder EVERY SINGLE THING THERE. Cause you are just so good right?
Its not so much that the Horde is completely evil, but at least from an Alliance perspective the Forsaken seem to be usually evil, the Orcs easily fall into evil habits, and the Goblins will do all manner of evil if you pay them enough. The Tauren and Trolls aren’t so bad, but they don’t seem to stand up to the other groups that much. The net result is that Horde seems to tend toward violence and they easily commit atrocities if their Warchief tells them to. Yeah, maybe the nicer Horde leaders and heroes will feel bad and come around eventually but that’s always after the fact.
this is supported by the fact that “the people supports sylvanas”
even lord’themar fears that his blood elfs don’t follow him.
Look how quickly we moved from “They didn’t know what Sylvanas was doing!” to “Well we could not lose that advantage!”
Honey you told me if Horde leaders knew what Sylvanas was doing they would have not done it or stopped it.
Well now they know. And rather than arrest her or abandon her you use selfish reason as to why they should follow her regardless because morals don’t matter.
And this is supposed to showcase that the Horde is not “evil”
Are you trolling here? When Germany was brought down any and all living Generals, higher officials in the German government was not forgiven.
They were either thrown in prison or executed.
The Horde leaders are guilty of the same crimes and just because they decided to switch sides when they started losing makes no difference.
Here we go another Horde player justifying the first Horde, Iron Horde and Garrosh.
Only to be attacked by the same Horde again and see Teldrassil happen as Horde soldiers cheer.
No demon blood excuse this time.
Yes the Horde is evil or at the very least amoral savages.
Poor Lor’themar. That really sucks for him that it seems like the Blood Elves would rather follow Sylvanas and her Forsaken than their actual leader.
Yeah but there’s the other side of it.
Orcs are very family oriented and value a code of conduct a lot wich serves as moral compass.
Trolls have that only to a lesser extent than orcs.
Taurens are pretty much THE good guys on the horde.
Gobs yeah they are greedy bastards, forsaken yeah…they do some pretty evil things.
But again, it is unfair to go ''oh this side is ALL GOOD and this one is ALL EVIL" when the truth is, they all have both of them in it. My point is, there is no absolutes here.
You have Sylvanas being a crazy tyrant, at the same now we have Saurfang’s rebelion going against her.
Ok it seems you need clarification here.
They didn’t know Sylvanas would BURN TELRDRASSIL, because she did it in a whim. They tought it would be an attack to militaries and civilians wouldn’t be harmed.
That’s why many of them showed surprised and disgust by what Sylvanas did. Are you understanding the part where they wheren’t aware of what Sylvanas would do?
Is it ok? Should I draw?
THEN AFTER THAT. You have the Siege of Lordaeron, where the tactical value I said would apply, because wanting him or not, Lorthemar NEEDED Horde support and defecting would mean he and HIS PEOPLE would be alone in a continent dominated by a superpower that wants his people DEAD.
Are you following so far? Cause it sounds like you didn’t play the story here.
Yeah they where. Does that mean ALL GERMANS are evil? Or just the ones in high command who ordered all that awful stuff? Cause that’s what you’re saying here, people in command ordered bad thngs, therefore every single one on the Horde is evil and deserves to die.
[quote=“Hetaera-sargeras, post:375, topic:219103”]
Here we go another Horde player justifying the first Horde, Iron Horde and Garrosh.
I’m justifying you trying to argue about a faction you know nothing of.
Hence. The ''you can’t blame every single being who happens to live in Orgrimmar, Thunder Bluff, Undercity and Silvermoon who wheren’t even there for their actions.
The entire Horde has so far seemed to be completely in support of Sylvanas.
There has been zero indication that the Horde is interested in anything remotely constructive.
And their actions since Teldrassil have stayed pretty on point with the whole evil thing.
Killing the wounded in an infirmary.
Blighting Darkshore and torture of prisoners.
Brennadam slaughter of civilians and enslavement in the mines in Stormsong.
Really you can’t argue at all that maybe the other Horde leaders or soldiers are reluctant in this conflict.
The only act of “goodness” we have seen is from the lorthermar and thally in Nazjatar when they are surrounded by Naga and Baine protecting Forsaken free will.
When Zaluzan tells me the Horde is good! Ok. WHERE?! Because I don’t see a damn thing that would indicate that they are.
All I see is motivated from self interest.
I understand that’s the ideal, but the story has a strong tendency to position the Horde as the evil leaning group and the Alliance as the good leaning group.
This attack was pretty bad. At least when the Alliance attacked Dazar’alor the Zandalari were basically allied with the Horde. When the Horde attacked Brennadam the Kul Tirans were actually opposed to the Alliance and were still holding Jaina captive. Sure, the Alliance was trying to smooth that over and ally up, but the random farmers and villagers of Brennadam probably had no idea why random Orcs and Goblins were suddenly killing them and burning their stuff.
I did play.
I just refute your reasoning as being adequate to explain away the Horde actions like it was the actions of 5 dudes and their edgy girlfriend.
Alright fine you ain’t all evil but all of Horde high command need to die then and the Alliance occupy Horde lands to ensure they behave themselves.
You agree to that?
I know Horde keeps committing atrocity after atrocity no matter who seems to be in charge or infected by demon blood.
Is that a fair summary?
I blame them because they still follow her as demonstrated by Blizzard.
With Thrall, Saurfang and others being RARE cases of dissenters.
Has there been a quest that shows some Horde soldiers deserting in disgust and you have to bring them down? How about protests? Anything? Right I didn’t think so.