The Horde Council is a joke

Lore Story Forum
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The part of this conversation I find the funniest is that it all started about something Jaina almost did. While having a mental breakdown from trauma she had just suffered and while also suffering what was effectively a massive drug overdose. That is the very definition of compromised mental state. There is no court that would convict someone under those conditions, even if she hadn’t been talked down. And she was talked down. So, this seems like a really insane thing to try and hold over her.

On top of that, it was Jaina by herself. It was not the Alliance. Now compare that to Theramore or Teldrassil where the Horde military was involved and helped both happen.

Look, the Alliance has not always been pure and has not always done the correct thing. But Jaina breaking down and almost doing something bad is not something you can claim in the ‘Alliance atrocity’ column.

And finally, I have a real issue when people talk about 'oh, the Alliance never got punished for it’s wrongs. Okay, so what about the Horde? The game cannot really punish either faction. They are playable factions and protected. That is why the Horde was not punished for helping Garrosh, it was all put on him. That is why the Horde was not punished for supporting Sylvanas, it was all put on her.

Neither faction is going to be punished. It cannot happen. And, on top of that there have been more than a few ‘moving on from the past mistakes’ story threads. Blizzard is clearly trying to move away from the sins of both factions.

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Says the guy cheerleading the slaughter of Orgrimmar’s children.

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Again I dont think she should have done it. I just dont blame her for wanting to do it. And the only one who should be blame is the faction that cause what was the most peace minded person in the world to do a 180 and want absolute carnage.

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Calling BS on the Comprised Mental state. Because her mental state was just fine. Fine enough to be talked down infact.

So, yes, she can be and should rightfully be held accountable for her own actions

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Also while I do not particularly care to relitigate who killed whom, least of all with Zerde, Lawful Good Overdrive can mean a lot of things especially from someone who clearly played AD&D 2e - Lawful Good Overdrive factions could be pretty damn evil (one of those in Planescape caused a cosmic realignment with their torture prison on a formerly Lawful Good planar layer)

And that same speech had the horde as Chaotic Good so really it’s always suspect when it gets brought up as exonerating of only one side’s horrendous writing.

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I’m just tired of the extremely dishonest discussions around the Horde vs Aliance. Because certain people here will purposely ignore the actions of the alliance, the same actions that led to horde taking the actions they did, and than try blaming EVERYTHING on the horde

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Most people wouldn’t kill babies to get back at a war criminal.

I’m still bewildered you tried to ground this in real life contrasts, given the subject matter.

The culprits are basically all dead. Regardless, that’s not how justice works. Eye for an Eye is pretty universally understood to be a disastrous method of doling out justice. There is no action The Horde can undertake that makes it okay for Jaina to murder innocent children, full stop.

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Luckily we are not in those setting and its more of a traditional “lawful good overdrive” meaning just good guys.

Not really. Again, alot of others joined Garrosh in his march. Funny how someone mentioned the Alliance gets scapegoats for when it does something bad but it applies as much if not more to the Horde.

If we want a trial for all the attrocities commited than we probably should have one. Suffice to say I dont think the Horde will get the better end of that deal.

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Did you somehow miss the Siege where we annihilated most of The Horde’s forces to get to Garrosh?

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I really wish the like 3 people I have perma ignored on every toon could not reply to me but fine let’s do this.

Traditional lawful good overdrive is exactly what these 80s-90s rpgs often treated as “actually pretty bad too”- before the aforementioned AD&D, the concept of Lawful Good does not exist in fantasy and is mostly subsumed in Moorcock’s Law vs Chaos axis, in which “overdrive” is absolutely, unequivocally bad.

Also considering about half the writing team for old wow was involved in Dragonlance: guess what was the alignment of the empire that caused an era-ending cataclysm and enacted tyranny never before seen in the setting?

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The comparison is more apt than he realizes, honestly, given the whole “Lawful Good people can kill humanoid babies and still be Lawful Good” thing. (Just to be clear, Gygax’s framing of Lawful Good was certainly something)

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Yeah I wouldn’t defend that storyline. Because the message is;

“Remember kids your racist dad is right! Get 'Em Before They Get You”.

But all in all Jania’s been mishandled. Theramore should’ve been it’s own faction and resembled more what Cata Hearthglenn did - this multi ethnic society just sort of vibing.

Her guards butchering any Orc on sight didn’t exactly spread a message of peace and coexistence.

Seriously somehow the manifestation of that coexist bumper sticker crawled out of the Plaguelands. Which could’ve been frothing at the mouth Paladins fighting cackling Undead for all eternity and that’d be fine with me. But then the Argent Dawn showed up and wanted peace with everyone who wasn’t evil incarnate.

Meanwhile Theramore wants peace with the Horde. Whom they will shoot on sight.

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Just fine?! Seriously?!

The book described a mental breakdown pretty explicitly. She just watched most of her closest friends get killed and her home destroyed, so the mental breakdown part is pretty much on par with expectations. And we were told the mana overdose was effecting her like a drug.

Imagine if someone came into your home, killed your family in front of you, burned your home, and shot you full of drugs. How good do you think your state of mind would be?

That kind of trauma combined with a drugged state is not something anyone could be clear headed with.

Claiming ‘nah, she was totally fine’ is really mind bogglingly stupid given the circumstances.

The fact she could be talked down was a testament to her character, not that she was in an okay state of mind. She was talked down despite her compromised mental state.

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I don’t know if someone can claim insanity for a plan to wipe out an entire city, that might be stretching it

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THAT’S WHAT I’M SAYING!!

Yes!!

:joy: Feels weird agreeing with you for a change, but damn – People still justifying and saying the Alliance are just as worse & bad as the Horde in all aspects, is just mental rofl

The Horde are very obviously far more villainous than the Alliance in terms of their rap-sheet. Debating otherwise and arguing: “No, no — They’re the same. In fact the Alliance might actually be worse.” is just some baffling headcanon.

I understand comparing, debating & defending one scenario or something here & there — Like the Purge of Dalaran, but to compare EVERYTHING and nod along that everything is ‘equal’ in morality or that the Alliance & their leaders have done worse than the Horde?? Pfffffffft. :rofl:

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Because she wasn;t. Notice its only TWO people trying desperately to defend Jainas genocide attempts

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The original point was to contrast the “insta-forget” approach to Jaina with how Sylvanas was treated. The “mental breakdown” is a stretch for Jaina. She presented a pretty standard racist justification for killing orc children, similar to the one that many cold rational racists presented for atrocities in WW II. But, either way, Syvlanas was so delusional that she thought the Night Elves in Teldrasil would be better off. (A few hundred years of life v. not being screwed over for an eternity in the afterlife.). “I will set us all free”

Now, of course, “Alliance did nothing wrong” and “evil Horde” memes creepe into this. The situations actually are parallel on this topic also. If you blame “the Horde” for Sylvanas, then you have to blame “the Alliance” for Jaina. For my money, doing either is pretty much just the concept of racial guilt. A random person in Thunder Bluff has no more responsibility for Sylvanas than a random person in Iron Forge has for Jaina.

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?

For real? I actually didn’t know this.

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Specifically the spiel that this came out of was comparing the horde to Wolverine which is roughly the same thing

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The part that is really weird is many of the same people who claim the Alliance is just as bad as the Horde also complain that the Horde was villain batted and it is not fair. It is funny how some people can believe mutually exclusive narratives at the same time.

There are lots of codes for various versions of insanity or not in right mind defenses. All of them refer to the person’s ability to know the nature of their act or the ability to know right from wrong at the time of the act (or attempted act). To my knowledge none of them anywhere stipulate that the severity of the crime or attempted crime changes that.

Extreme trauma to the degree that few people have every experienced, caused by the Horde atrocity, causing a mental break down mixed with a drugged state is clearly something that would impair a person’s ability to distinguish right and wrong. And historically there have been MANY cases where the person was given a not guilty by reason of insanity verdict for significantly less dramatic cause.

And in this case, as the action was so extremely opposite of her historical actions, the extreme nature actually supports the claim of not being in sound mind at the time.

Well, there are HUGE fundamental issues with that argument on the face of it.

First, Sylvanas actions were supported and aided by the Horde. Jaina acted without the support of the Alliance.

Second, Jaina didn’t destroy Orgrimmar. So, there is nothing really to hold the Alliance responsible for. Sylvanas did destroy Teldrassil.

And the next big issue is the game did let the Horde off the hook. Everything was blamed on Sylvanas and the Horde was whitewashed. But others here think the Alliance should suffer for what Jaina almost did.

Again, the problem is you have certain people screaming for the Alliance to be held responsible for what Jaina almost did. While the Horde isn’t even being held responsible for what it helped Sylvanas actually do.
(Note: I am not suggesting the Horde be held accountable either. Punishing a faction is not something that will or should happen, as it would ultimately just be punishing players. Players who had no control of the story.)

And that is all before we even talk about mental states. The situations are not comparable.

And that is just not true. Sylvanas did not think they would be better off. She knew what was going to happen to them. She just thought it was justified to remake the system. It was an end justifies the means situation.

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