That and the “Human Raised” Thrall, he fits that trope too I’m afraid.
And things get more problematic for Baine here in SLs. For the first time in ages, the guy does not need to be the Token Good Horde. He, the main rep of arguably the most spirit worshipping PC race in this game, finds himself in the Lands of the Dead. AND he was ruthlessly reminded how WORTHLESS and WEAK he is, when he was discarded as such by his own kidnappers. Especially within the type of setting Baine now finds himself.
Yet, this VERY classic trope for character reflection and growth seems to instead be just being used as a “Fact”. He IS worthless and weak. He is NOT special. His only value in this story IS to his Disney’s John Smith standin and HIS story. He is Anduin’s accessory “Token Good Horde” pet, who seems like he could not stumble upon a meaningful story of his own if he tried. Even with the IDEAL character motivation and setting for a Tauren.
EDIT: Truly, the Death Cosmology is the ONE of the SIX Cosmological Domains the Horde Races have always towered over the Alliance in relevance and nuance with. Yet, there is no spirit worship representation. A footnote of Bwon presence. And despite the entire story revolving around the Forsaken’s “design source” AND true creators … they are nowhere to be seen after having everything about them left in utter ruin. Instead … its all “By the Light”, “Human DeathKnights”, and a dash of “Night Elf Elune lore” (the last of which is at least interesting).
You do realise that the troll empire was initially Violent expansionist that invaded other native races lands to build its Empire.
Even Zandalar is built out of titan facility does that mean that as the alliance should claim it as it belonged to their ancestors?
Durotar belong to the quillboar before the Horde violently drove them off to build their capital. They also killed off so many of the Centuar that they were no longer a threat to the Tauren.
No race is innocent of taking lands from others so while the trolls can be angry about losing lands to other races. Morally they have no more right to those lands than anyone else. This goes for both factions.
The fact is without the titanforged ordering the planet and seeding it with life nothing but old god creatures and elementals would exist. So arguing that the Titan forged races don’t have right’s to any lands is like arguing the trolls shouldn’t exist. They were the First beings to setup nations on Azeroth, trolls had only come along well after most of them went to sleep.
Land is land it will always change hands. The thing we need to look at is why a faction needs the land and how they go about taking it.
It is not that the Alliance isnt capable of racism, it is just it managed to do it in very subtle ways and usually fairly indirect. Just look at the ambassador for the allied races. Sans the lightforged he shades ever race. I’d also point out many of the main Alliance characters grew, like say Genn who have move on from “kill all undead” to “we don’t have to live or even live near each other, but we don’t have to kill each other”.
It has even had to confront its own bigotry against the Undead(Turalyon and his meeting with Faol). I’d also point out the main characters of the Alliance has thus far solved most of their internal conflict without trying to kill each other(like Jaina/Alleria nearly coming to blows)
Or you know, as established and stable nations, the Alliance has the luxury to deal with its flaws and usually in non-combative ways. Same with the real world, the richer a nation is the more likely it is to try and deal with more esoteric problems of inequality/racism as oppose to trying to keep the nation from economically falling apart/dealing with its internal corruption.
Because the Jailer does not need warriors. He has an abundance of them at his disposal. Even Thrall had to get back his shamanistic powers just to actually be useful.
What does curry taste and feel like? On hot peppers, suddenly caught in the soup, after which there is an unpleasant sensation of heat in the mouth? A harsh but soft bitterness stick?
And you really distinguish food by taste, and not by the structure of the food and the sensations in the mouth (hot, something stuck in the teeth, cold, hardly felt, oily (?))
Because again, you didn’t give me any options. I’d gladly have a resolution for Teldrassil that doesn’t involve villainbatting anyone.
Do you think i’m unaware that it is the writer’s fault, and not the Horde player’s? Because i’m not, i’m very aware of that fact.
Isn’t that how everyone here presents their wishes and arguments? That their issues should be dealt with a specific way?
Funny, because i’m picking up something from you, that being “I don’t care at all if Teldrassil is resolved or not, and I don’t care how that impacts Alliance players one bit”.
You don’t get to lecture me about my premise, when you couldn’t care less how Alliance players feel.
And yes, I do actually feel for Horde players. But apparently that means I can’t involve them in my hypothetical scenarios in creating a resolution for Teldrassil. Not at all. Not in any way, shape or form. Simply because you decide so.
So i’m curious, do you think that there should be no resolution for Teldrassil? Because if so, just say that, so I can stop wasting my time with you.
In any case, this whole discussion spun out from me expressing a willingness for the Alliance to be a bit more grey, if that meant a possible resolution for Teldrassil. Then you came in and said that the only way to get that resolution would be for the Alliance to be villainbatted, like the Horde did. So I said yes, i’d be fine with that. But it seems you simply gave me a trick question, for whatever reason.
The Jailer doesn’t operate autonomously, he does whatever the writers want him to do. It was a choice. It was a choice to not give Baine anything to do.
Mind you hun, some of us do want a more morally grey/nuanced alliance. I want my monster worgen race….not the puppies in distress that we got instead. (God, why is Ivar such a badass and the playable worgen such sad sacks?)
In virtually every thread talking about Alliance improvements. Alliance players want to be darker but you people keep spreading this lie.
Alright.
If the reason the Alliance is a shinning beacon of morality because of their players then I guess Horde villainous actions are the result of the Horde players clamoring for that kind of depiction.
I mean if the shoe fits… right? Right.
Don’t bother. Every time droite hears something against their 5 talking monologues they process it for a day and within that 24 hours it ceases to exist and we are right back the same old rehearsed monologue with no deviation.
And yet, outside of Micah, its hard not to notice the theme of many Alliance players on this sub. Who rather than wanting more “Grey” and tangible “Flaws”, merely want their expected Moral Purity to no longer be used as a tool to handicap their Absolutist Power Fantasy. So, getting us back more to the Legion days where the Alliance ALL Good nature was working in perfect tandem with their ALL Powerful one. And the reason BfA seems to have Blueballed so many Blues is that that purity (specifically Anduin) is being used as a plot device to shackle their ability to reassert their dominance.
You, who habitually excuses anything that even fringes on grey when its brought up as a point against the Alliance. And who seems to revel in the Horde being the by-default evil faction.
Morg? Who’s not about tangible flaws that result in consequences for himself, but rather him feeling SUPER slighted that “we got to blow up his stuff”, and desperately wants to reassert his power fantasy.
Kyalin? Who masquerades consideration for the Horde, but that consideration is optional to her getting to reassert her NE power fantasy and support her RP-PvP (and I betcha she’d freak out if those “rogue NEs” actually were portrayed in a genuinely negative light).
Zerde? Who is the living embodiment of “Reveling in Moral Absolutism”, and GoodRace/EvilRace tropes.
Badmaa? Who’s really just about getting the icky Horde out of the way of his Alliance stories with his “reservations” plan (voluntary mind you, as the Alliance cant be besmirched by such an ugly thing).
Ain? Forget it. He’ll call back to Pre-Cata characters and characterizations that once held the Alliance capacity for flaws and grey, but he’s never had a counter to the post-Cata era whitewashing that stripped the Alliance of the ability to have those types of characters. And Humans are purity and perfection.
The only time any of these players seem to have a genuine interest in Alliance grey, is when someone points out how not having the capacity for flaws is itself a writing flaw … and the Alliance can’t have those. Which is why so many of their solutions for re-inserting “grey”, really is just boil down to giving themselves opportunities to get their hits in on the Horde they feel owe them; and reassert their expected power fantasy. But tangible negative consequences for those types of acts for the Alliance themselves? Forget it.
You do realize inexplicable or lack of motivation by certain characters doing something isn’t the norm right?
I only raise these points because some people treat some Alliance actions as this inexplicable and unjustified action.
Having justifications or motivations isn’t a bad thing and doesn’t morally absolve someone of their actions.
What sort of negative consequences? Are these negative consequences something to build the faction further like political strife or is it just to drag the Alliance in the same exact mud that Horde has been for parity’s sake like Ariel likes to suggest all the time?
In WoW, with how its written, it ABSOLUTELY does with how Blizz uses tone and framing. Just as in WoW, with how its written, the CAPACITY for genuine flaws is equal to evil. Which is why the Horde NEVER gets justifications or motives for ANYTHING they’re tasked to do by the writers (they don’t need such luxuries, they’re flawed, evil monsters), and why the Alliance gets BURIED under mountains of justifications, handwaving, or whitewashing in the few instances they even fringe on grey. To the point even their victims largely absolve it.
And should Blizz ever change this sort of inherent writing philosophy, where the Alliance actually are allowed to be proactive and act out their biggest power fantasies (getting what many Alliance players have convinced themselves the Horde players were given in BfA) … if there were tangible consquences for the Alliance and its characters for that sort of one-sided power fantasy. If Blizz committed to showing them tonally and narratively in the wrong … many of the Alliance playerbase would probably freak out.
Which is why you see things like Turalyon and Alleria Light/Void torturing an Orc Mother because “she’s just so inherently evil, and belligerent, and should have just done what the police told her”, and “they were left with no other alternatives, and treated all the other Horde refugees SUPER nice”. Or why the BW attacked the EL in Silithus for no reason, so SI:7 could slaughter Horde civilians without worrying about that pesky moral grey.
Speaking of SI:7, there has never been a callback or accounting for the whole “No witnesses” scenario.
Speaking of which, I’d be more mad about the Exploring Kalimidor being entirely from the perspective of SI:7 agents if it wasn’t for the fact that SI:7 is comically inept any time the alliance needs to use them for anything other than like, killing miners.
According to a lot of players, yeah. According to the story… nyeeeehh maybe? I tend to think it’s not intentional from Blizzard, but there are people who disagree.
Uh-huh. And it is important, where exactly will the Alliance look justified and right? If in the book he will enjoy killing babies, and on the screen (gameplay and cinematography) it will be standard justified revenge (justice), then such moraly grey will do? Black morality in the book, white morality on the screen. Or vice versa, a white book, a black video.
Hmm. Did it work that way with the Horde? White paper, black video?
You don’t think intentionally writing two different handwave excuses for why it was OK for SI:7 (an Alliance military organization) to slaughter Goblin Civilians in Silithus was intentional? With the abduction of Sapphretta clearly being slated as the original handwave excuse, then someone realizing it chronologically wouldn’t absolve SI:7 … sot they just defaulted to a “Evil Horde Race” trope instead. Resulting in the Bilgewater attacking the Explorers League not once, but twice? 1st, with no given motives beyond “LOL, they Goblins!” … and then the 2nd (original) time to kidnap Sapphy for Grizzek?
