Hmm. I’ll try it differently. What does the “crazy deal” look like from the Horde side? “You are losing the city, the zone, the pride, I am losing the pride, the characters, the city and part of the zone.” This is BfA.
Hmm. You want this deal “You do not return pride, and I do not return …”. What? What are you willing to give up? The goal for not returning “pride” is to avoid pain. What new pain should the Alliance avoid?
Dear, if anything this is what you actually detest and misconstruct as “logical fallacy” (pretty words but actual nonsense when actually evaluated in the context of our discussions) about us: how we refuse to “roll over” to YOUR suggestions.
I´ll repeat for the n-esim time: you refusing to listen, trying to gaslight AND deliberately trying to misconstruct the arguments of the posters that say “thanks, but no thanks” to your ideas does NOT mean the aspects we cited weren´t there.
I mean, it wasn´t only me or Baal or Gant… it was us PLUS other posters (heck, even some with blue backgrounds). And as Jellex told you a handful of posts above: when several people tell you some stuff you propose DOES NOT work, this doesn´t mean we all are mistaken and we all are incoherent guys that shouldn´t be listened; quite the contrary it means YOUR suggestion is NOT as infalible and perfect as you believe it is and that yes, maybe it´s time for you to LISTEN to the stuff other people tells you instead of getting defensive and trying to salvage the argument NOT with coherent arguments but with ad hominens.
I mean Irenaus put it pretty concrete and pretty beautifully just 5 mins ago… and you still insist that no, him and us are wrong and you are a victim of the circunstance and of “people not making proper arguments”.
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So what are you ready to offer as a crazy deal?
We did. I also point out in these cases that Battle for Dazar’alor was the opposite - many Horde players are bitter over their treatment in the whole of 8.1, but few Alliance players really consider it a “big win”.
The point I am ultimately making is that yes - this HAS been done to death, and it’s what leads to the efforts to “keep score” which seem to consume like 80% of the forum anymore. Nobody is ever going to agree on a points-scoring system, which is going to make pretty much all argumentation based on it predoomed to failure.
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Uh-huh. That is, for balance, the Alliance must get a victory that it will be ashamed of?
Irenaus wound his contention into a rather confused place when he established that he didn’t necessarily see your position as reasonable either - but that point I will highlight.
But once again, I do not have to accept flat out rejections of proposals that are based in lies about their aspects. If I offer you a hamburger, and you launch into a rant about how I’m an awful, stupid person who doesn’t understand that you don’t want a salad, I’m not going to accept your feedback as making any sense at all.
That is how I see most of your commentary.
In one of the few cases where we did reach a partial resolution, Droite eventually understood precisely what I was saying, and while I think it’s unreasonable to declare that she’ll only accept it if Blizzard improves Baine (as I think that’s imposing something on the suggestion that the suggestion itself has no control over) - we did get to a point where we were actually discussing what was proposed.
So no, it’s not as unanimous as you propose, and for however much metaphorical screaming that you intend to do here, you are not a reasonable actor on these boards.
A piece of parchment won’t stop the Horde from declaring war.
Alliance has little reason to trust the Horde won’t attack them again. Since they have done it so many times before.
Night Elves will always be a target.
Tyrande and NEs have been victimized and need their “strong” moment. Even if I assume they got this strong moment.
What is going to make the whole “lets move on and rebuild” even a good idea when the Horde can just invade again and destroy it all as they done many times before.
Its clear the NEs are totally unable to defend themselves in a defensive war against the Horde. So what do they do? Abandon kalimdor? Rebuild elsewhere?
Likes are not particularly meaningful in a forum where posters have segregated themselves into faction based cliques. It’s cheerleading and nothing more.
Of course I’m generally not a fan of social media with upvote systems in general as by its very nature encourages performance over substance. Personally if I’m going to give an upvote it needs to be because the post itself was good, not necessarily because I agree with it.
Your response tells me you understood literally zero of the point I was making.
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No I understood.
I am not counting points.
I am asking if a go along with the “forgive the Horde and rebuild” storyline it has some serious holes in it.
Its like rebuilding a skyscraper on a cliff.
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If a lack of means, motive, and barely forced opportunity wonts stop the Horde from being the aggressors … you are right that a peace of parchment wont stop us. Just as Blizz wont continue to use pieces of parchment to invalidate Alliance “grey” and “aggressive” acts, so the Horde can constantly start conflicts unprovoked. When one faction is a plot-device (the Horde), means, motives, and opportunities are “luxuries” that are ultimately irrelevant to the “vision”. And if you are a walking purity test (the Alliance), means, motives, and opportunities are equally irrelevant if they get in the way of “that flawless brand image”. The Horde is the forced proactive entity, the Alliance the passive reactive one.
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And what is so dangerous about rebuilding a skyscraper located on a cliff? Or is it a catch phrase?
I genuinely think we are done with faction war for the foreseeable future.
So if this is the last time, what is the reason? Surely the Warchief position changing is not the only assurance the Alliance needs.
Talk about actual lack of empathy and an overabundance of short sightedness. I´ll never deny losing their capitol city the way they lost it was probably emotionally taxing and something far and away from a “minor” thing emotionally speaking for all the players that had an attachement to Darnassus and Darkshore; I´ll always respect those player´s right to mourn and find their own ways to overcome the pain this event left on them.
But on the same vein, I expect to get the same courtesy and won´t stand for any more scenarios that do nothing but to propel the narrative beats that made possible the WoT in the first place (a.k.a. Horde aggresion towards Nelves in this particular case. It is NOT relevant if it´s done offensively or defensively, at the end of the day is just Orcs kicking genocide survivors down and after BfA NOTHING in the story will makes this palatable for us. The Horde NEEDS the space to develop -heck, to actually REBUILD- itself outside of the Alliance influence in the story… we Horde players NEED to believe once again in the faction, and hitting the same people we got chastised and humiliated for attacking for 2 years is NOT the way to achieve this.
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But you’re basically just shutting me down. You’re saying that there shouldn’t be any kind of resolution for Teldrassil involving the Horde, because the Alliance can’t handle the villainbatting. And when I say yes, i’m actually willing to have the Alliance villainbat, if it meant some kind of resolution, but then you call me shortsighted.
So tell me, what is the stance I should take in order for a resolution to be possible, because you clearly must know, having shut me down several times now. Unless your stance is “suck dirt, no resolution for you”. But I just want you to be upfront about that in that case.
Oh no i’m fine with Jaina being put to task for her misdeeds. I just don’t want you to pretend it makes the Horde and the Alliance equally bad, alright? Go ahead, have her give an apology speech directed to those she has wronged, and try to help them directly. That’s all i’m asking for the Alliance side.
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How about the Horde gritting their teeth heroically endure being killed before the attacker becomes uncomfortable?
You only argue in bad faith so I’m not addressing you anymore. So yeah, as far as I am concerned you specifically and your concerns no longer exist.
I’ll talk with the guy that’s at least trying to hammer something out logically.
What you want is some kind of transactional solution. What I am saying is that there does not need to be a transaction for the Horde to behave heroically - the Horde does not need to be humiliated for that to happen.
Probably the easiest way for this to work out would be for the Horde to actively prevent some future harm to the Alliance. Rather than give up something to the Alliance, we instead sacrifice something to protect the Alliance - this would assume that the factions are in a situation like now where they are technically working together against a larger threat.
Unfortunately we’ve run through so many important Horde NPC’s we don’t have many more of those to sacrifice, and for parities sake a major existing city should not be sacrificed. However, in a new expansion there could be some situation where Stormwind is about to be hit by a giant meteor or some such nonsense and an NPC that is important to the Horde blocks it by ramming a mobile city into it that was introduced in that expansion (a new Forsaken Naxxramas or Blood Elf flavor Dalaran).
The Horde loses its shiny new toy and an important NPC is incapacitated or ‘lost’ temporarily like Malfurian or Mechatorque was. Honor is maintained because even though the loss helps the cause against the Larger threat over all and (if done right) it should come off as more ‘cool’ than fawning.
It should be stressed that for this to work it would have to be emphasized that this did not fully repay the debt the Alliance feels they are owed nor that the Horde did it for that purpose. For it to work it would need to be a purely selfless and therefore heroic act.
But given how self sacrifice has been written in the series before it’s unlikely that the current writers could really come up with something like that.
This thread has gotten really weird.
I am specifically trying to get away from such tit-for-tat. The Horde can be heroic in a way that benefits the Alliance instead of either side having to incur any further suffering.
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?!?!?!? No.
What?
What kind of bleak and terrible outlook on human society, as if everyone is motivated by some sort of victory/loss, predatory/prey impulse
Christ.
Not to mention, what the Battle for Dazar’alor was changes depending on whether you’re Horde or Alliance because of the unreliable narrator in both cases.
What’s interesting, is that both the Alliance and Horde versions agree Rastakhan said this:
King Rastakhan says: You…an exile without a homeland…you dare invade dese sacred halls and demand dat I turn my kingdom over to you?
King Rastakhan says: De Zandalari built an empire dat would endure for over ten-thousand years…while your barbaric ancestors scuffled in de dirt.
King Rastakhan says: WE conquered this world. WE brought it glory. You…you are nothing. Merely de latest in a long line of savages seeking to undermine our greatness.
King Rastakhan says: No, I will not surrender. Because no matter what happens here today…Zandalar will stand long after your Alliance has crumbled to dust.
King Rastakhan says: But if you are so eager to meet Bwonsamdi…den step forward. De Loa of Death awaits!
King Rastakhan says: Zandalar forever!
Now that first line, “you demand I turn over my kingdom to you”, and the outrage that follows, does it make sense if Genn had said something Problematic, ie the Horde version, or something completely neutral, ie the Alliance version?
Alliance:
Genn Greymane says: King Rastakhan of Zandalar… On behalf of the Alliance, and in the name of King Anduin Wrynn, I hereby request your surrender.
…
Genn Greymane says: So be it. Heroes… you know what must be done.
Horde:
Genn Greymane says: King Rastakhan of Zandalar… I order you to submit! You will bow before your new master, King Anduin Wrynn, and you will deliver your daughter to us as a hostage!
…
Genn Greymane says: So be it. Heroes of the Alliance… strike him down! No mercy for this savage!
The Alliance is always whitewashed to itself lol
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