The High Elf Love Thread 🥰

[Fyorsing-sargeras]

And I am posting an actual fact that Blood Elves are High Elves, no matter how many times this gets denied. A name change does not indicate a new race, culture or political group.

I didn’t mention biology, or race, at all – this is you in the early stages of building a strawman.

[Fyorsing-sargeras]

And while each group is distinct, they’re also at the core the same people.

Again, you won’t find a post from me which denies this is a reality – instead, what you’ll find is that I’m merely suggesting that Blood Elves (and Void Elves) refer to their broader ethnicity (i.e. “the same people” you referenced above) as something akin to “Thalassian” and not as “High Elves”.

And, despite nearly a dozen attempts to coax even just a single example of any Blood Elf (or Void Elf) referring to their broader ethnicity as “High Elf”, not a one has been cited to – most probably, because such examples don’t exist.

[Guzzle-barthilas]

And, despite nearly a dozen attempts to coax even just a single example of any Blood Elf (or Void Elf) referring to their broader ethnicity as “High Elf”, not a one has been cited to – most probably, because such examples don’t exist.

Just Ion and Metzen.

[Fyorsing-sargeras]

Just Ion and Metzen.

That isn’t an in-universe example, which is what I’ve consistently requested a citation of – that’s an appeal to authority, which is when you suggest that simply because someone is in a position of authority, what they say or do is objectively correct.

(Also, it’s interesting that you’ve got the time to make silly one-off comments, but apparently no time whatsoever to find JUST ONE EXAMPLE of either a BE or a VE referring to their broader ethnicity as “High Elf”.)

[Guzzle-barthilas]

That isn’t an in-universe example, which is what I’ve consistently requested a citation of – that’s an appeal to authority, which is when you suggest that simply because someone is in a position of authority, what they say or do is objectively correct.

An appeal to authority is only a fallacy in argumentation. Refusing to accept the opinions of experts without good reason is denialism.

Both Ion and Metzen have an absolute level of authority and reliability on the subject as they have respectively decided the direction of the piece of fiction being argued.

Given the weight of their input on this subject attempting to dismiss them out of hand because of a perceived logical fallacy (which by the way, doesn’t invalidate an argument), is specious reasoning at best.

[Valarían-hydraxis]

Good point, A Sin’dorei wouldn’t go around celebrating "Hi I’m a High Elf lets party fellow High Elves. But I think they would respect a certain degree of kinship between the two. imho

[Licynia-sargeras]

Both Ion and Metzen have an absolute level of authority and reliability on the subject as they have respectively decided the direction of the piece of fiction being argued.

Ion and Metzen are experts, yes, and they’re in the drivers seat. But as fans, we’re the ones paying the sub fees and keeping the lights on. We’re the reason the game is successful in the first place.

If we put up with whatever these people, no matter how stupid or imbeclic it is (e.g.: “lootboxes in Battlefront give you sense of accomplishment”) that gives them carte blanc to run roughshod over us as they please.

I love Blizzard, I love Warcraft with all my heart, and it is because I love them that I reserve the right to criticise them at times

[Guzzle-barthilas]

Ion and Metzen are experts, yes, and they’re in the drivers seat. But as fans, we’re the ones paying the sub fees and keeping the lights on. We’re the reason the game is successful in the first place.

If we put up with whatever these people, no matter how stupid or imbeclic it is (e.g.: “lootboxes in Battlefront give you sense of accomplishment”) that gives them carte blanc to run roughshod over us as they please.

I love Blizzard, I love Warcraft with all my heart, and it is because I love them that I reserve the right to criticise them at times

You are free to disagree with them all you like. But their level of authority on the matter is very strong and trying to say that deferring to them is an invalid argument is denialism. That’s not to say that it’s necessarily correct (although I think it definitely is, the level of authority granted to the people who literally decide things like this is about absolute), but it is a valid line of argument.

It’d be like if I, Guzzle, were to say “I love onion soup”. And then someone else were to say “Based on this quote of Guzzle saying he loves onion soup, I deduce that he loves onion soup.” Technically it’s an appeal to authority, but it’s not an invalid argument because my quote comes from an expert with absolute and irreproachable authority on the matter in question.

[Kylorendori-lightbringer]

That isn’t an in-universe example, which is what I’ve consistently requested a citation of – that’s an appeal to authority, which is when you suggest that simply because someone is in a position of authority, what they say or do is objectively correct.

This is fair…

when you suggest that simply because someone is in a position of authority, what they say or do is objectively correct.

…because it may well not be objectively correct.

What is objectively correct is pointing out that this is in fact the mindset of the people making the decisions.

[Murgatroyd-lightbringer (Murgatroyd)]

That isn’t an in-universe example, which is what I’ve consistently requested a citation of – that’s an appeal to authority, which is when you suggest that simply because someone is in a position of authority, what they say or do is objectively correct.

This is fair…

when you suggest that simply because someone is in a position of authority, what they say or do is objectively correct.

…because it may well not be objectively correct.

What is objectively correct is pointing out that this is in fact the mindset of the people making the decisions.

Um, ok, forgot to stuff EmoElf back on the shelf…

[Guzzle-barthilas]

This is fair…

It’s not though, Ion and Metzen are valid experts who are discussing their own work. An appeal to authority is only really a fallacy if the authority being appealed to is not really considered reliable.

[Murgatroyd-lightbringer (Murgatroyd)]

This is fair…

It’s not though, Ion and Metzen are valid experts who are discussing their own work. An appeal to authority is only really a fallacy if the authority being appealed to is not really considered reliable

I’m hoping Fyorsing is using it in that context - that somehow Ion or Chris are objectively wrong about the game they’ve guided over the years. I’ve seen enough “Ion doesn’t know wth he’s talking about” comments to think that might actually be the case here.

[Fyorsing-sargeras]

Refusing to accept the opinions of experts without good reason is denialism.

That there isn’t a single instance wherein either a BE or VE describes their broader ethnicity as “High Elf”, is the probably the strongest argument one could possibly make given the level of information available to us.

Again, suggesting that Ion or Metzen are objectively correct solely because they’re in positions of authority is absurd, for two reasons:

1. Both Hozzikostas and Metzen have, at various times, demonstrated an extraordinary lack of insight when it comes to some of the more narrow aspects of their own canon.
   
   
2. There isn’t a single in-universe example of either a BE or VE referring to their own broader ethnicity as “High Elf”, while there are numerous instances wherein they refer to themselves as “children of Quel’thalas” or “son/daughters of Quel’thalas”.

If J.K. Rowling said tomorrow that every character in her original Harry Potter series were, as a matter of fact, ethnically East Asian – that doesn’t actually make it true. Now, if she were to re-publish all of her books and explicitly denote all of her characters as East Asians, awesome, more power to her.

When Blizzard starts having BE’s or VE’s refer to their broader ethnicity as “High Elf”, and not “children of Quel’thalas” or “sons/daughters of Quel’thalas”, we’ll talk.

…because it may well not be objectively correct.

What is objectively correct is pointing out that this is in fact the mindset of the people making the decisions.

Right.

The crux of what I’m saying is that phrases like “Blood Elves are High Elves” or “Void Elves are High Elves” are misleading half-truths, and serve only to deracinate the notion of Alliance-aligned High Elves by suggesting that they haven’t been subjected to their own series of unique experiences.

A much more factually and linguistically appropriate expression would be, “BE’s, HE’s, and VE’s are all Thalassians.”

[Guzzle-barthilas]

Again, suggesting that Ion or Metzen are objectively correct solely because they’re in positions of authority is absurd, for two reasons:

Are you saying the guys who direct the narrative of World of Warcraft are not authoritative sources on the narrative of World of Warcraft?

What are your credentials that I should consider your dismissal of them valid? Because you would need to prove yourself as authoritative a source as either of them to have that kind of expert knowledge.

[Valarían-hydraxis]

They both have been known to make mistakes, and they are human. I doubt they get into discussions this deep to. imho

[Guzzle-barthilas]

Well, that might be the case, but someone with an obvious bias towards him being wrong needs to provide some pretty substantial evidence to invalidate Ion and Metzen (since they agree on this matter) as experts. Just squawking about ‘m-muh appeal to authority’, doesn’t cut it.

[Fyorsing-sargeras]

Are you saying the guys who direct the narrative of World of Warcraft are not authoritative sources on the narrative of World of Warcraft?

I’m saying that published facts (i.e. those things evidenced as self-evident truths by in-universe sources) hold much more weight than off-the-cuff commentary from employees – and that said off-the-cuff commentary can be, objectively, incorrect.

As you seem to be of the mind that BE’s and VE’s consider themselves as belonging to a broader ethnicity called “High Elves”, and that this is an objective truth (i.e. meaning there is evidence of this that exists, in-universe), it shouldn’t be hard for you to find EVEN JUST ONE EXAMPLE of either a BE or VE stating as much.

I’ll wait, but I won’t hold my breath.

[Fyorsing-sargeras]

Well, that might be the case, but someone with an obvious bias towards him being wrong needs to provide some pretty substantial evidence to invalidate Ion and Metzen (since they agree on this matter) as experts. Just squawking about ‘m-muh appeal to authority’, doesn’t cut it.

The substantial evidence is that there are precisely zero instances, in-universe, whereby it is suggested that either BE’s or VE’s think of themselves as belonging to an ethnicity referred to as “High Elves”.

They’re “children of Quel’thalas” or “sons/daughters of Quel’thalas”, which I would posit would be best expressed colloquially as “Thalassians”.

[Lirica-wyrmrest-accord]

That isn’t an in-universe example, which is what I’ve consistently requested a citation of – that’s an appeal to authority, which is when you suggest that simply because someone is in a position of authority, what they say or do is objectively correct.

Ion and Metzen are experts, yes, and they’re in the drivers seat. But as fans, we’re the ones paying the sub fees and keeping the lights on. We’re the reason the game is successful in the first place.

https:// www(dot)wowhead(dot)com/news=288446/blizzcon-2018-lost-codex-interview-with-alex-afrasiabi-and-pat-dawson-origin-of-

I mean, Alex Afrasiabi said it quite differently from what Ion has said on 24:29 -
About the question: “Any future customization coming to Void Elves to bring them closer to high elf fantasy”
“Yes, there is always a chance. There is always a chance. Don’t give up hope. But just be respectful and give a post.”

In ways, Ion and Alex say two different things when they both are developers in the team. But in the end, both of them have to agree to something to make it clarified imo.

Alex Afrasiabi also has said it few times in his interviews that there are always possibilities and people can ask. So it was never always a shot down answer.

[Guzzle-barthilas]

Author’s accounts (which Ion and Metzen’s statements on the matter) are primary sources. Given that, unless you can provide an in-universe source or more authoritative account that the various Thalassian elf groups definitely cannot be called high elves from a scientific perspective, the weight of probability suggests that, chances are, they are.