I think for me the problem is High Elves are not uniquely Alliance. The High Elves as a whole joined the Alliance at the beginning of the second war. Except for some that decided to stay, the High Elves as a whole left the Alliance at the end of the second war. The High Elves of Dalaran were still loyal to Quel’Thalas, although they resided in Dalaran. I think to claiming that High Elves are unique to the Alliance seems wrong. To me they are just as unique to the Horde, even if they no longer us that title. I think the Quel’dorei that have been loyal to the Alliance since the second war, are more integrated in with human society, and do not hold to their old beliefs. Yet it’s this that I think makes them Unique. It is this that makes them different. This that makes their story diverge from the Blood Elf story… Do I think Blizzard can write their story in a way that wouldn’t damage Blood Elves… (queue doubt.) Blizzards track record for good story writing has left much to be desired.
I’m not against Alliance High Elves being playable on the Alliance side. Even though I believe that they will destroy the Blood Elves reason for being what they are. While at the same time rendering everything they have done, and have been through as being utterly useless. I’m not against them, because someone I care about really wants to play as one. That is all the reason I need to want them playable.
To me the Alliance HE’s retain the personality that they’ve always had which falls in line more with the personality of other Alliance races, Blood Elves imo are more my style arguably when Sylvanas loyalists are portrayed in Orgrimmar it’s Forsaken and Blood Elves largely being marched around in chains and I do not think the Alliance HE values would have ever been a Sylvanas loyalist, I think Sylvanas appeals to BEs for a number of reasons but the Eastern Kingdoms Horde being Forsaken and Blood Elves share a lot of the same personality traits. When I describe them as being flashy or self serving it’s not to a detriment of the race I personally wouldn’t like them nearly as much if they weren’t I personally like narratives with characters or societies like that.
And then coupled with Alliance HE’s valuing Alliance over their own kin, I can only imagine that they exemplify traditional Elf fantasy even more where as Blood Elf culture diverges from that. So I personally would say Sin’dorei are the successors and continuers of High Elf legacy, but High Elves are the same people and culture they’ve always been if not more Alliance now. And I’m more along the lines of Blood Elves are High Elves but not all High Elves are Blood Elves, so typically I would use High Elves to describe the ones Alliance aligned that are asked for in these conversations but that’s not to say I don’t also think HE’s in the form of BE’s aren’t also unique to Horde but to be fair I also think Forsaken embody a lot of what I like about Blood Elves too.
All in all at least we agree on the playability of
Alliance HE’s and I think we are of the same opinion on being generally against merging HE’s into VE’s or that’s my stance anyways but I thought we agreed on that too lol
That is one thing that bothered me. Lor’themar states Sylvanas does not consider the blood elves her people, and many were bitter about how she blackmailed them. I cannot understand why it would be believed they’d just go “HAIL SYLVANAS” when she has become such a contemptible creature
To my knowledge it was known how she blackmailed the blood elves into going to Northrend. They had just begun recovering from what was a civil war. Certainly, many liked the Sylvanas they knew of the past and respected her, but one can respect what someone did in the past, but find displeasure in what they have become.
Particularly given that her desire to force constant conflict largely goes against the blood elves desiring to be alone and recollect themselves.
I mean…if my race had just begun recovering from a genocide, and again went through a civil war, and then was forced by Sylvanas to expend further forces into a campaign that was not guaranteed success, I’d be pretty upset as well. Rommath was rather vocal about his displeasure about the matter. The dude doesn’t keep his mouth shut.
Now…as for the it being a favor;
It was blackmail.
“Do this or I am letting the scourge invade again” is not “I did you a favor do me one.”
Lorthemar doesnt provide full detail on the matter because then it detracts from the heritage story. Sylvanas is spoken of, in said context, of her heroic participation.
She is not seen fondly by the BE populace due to her madness and she isnt exactly running over to say hi to her former people.
Imo, one would think the orcs and forsaken wpuld be the main thing due to number and grudges towards the alliance that are recent.
Still? Doesn’t he basically just say ‘No matter what she may have done since, she still was a hero during the defense against the Scourge’ so less that she may have turned, but once she was heroic in the past tense?
Like Cersei Sylvanas stacks the government with loyalists, there’s a reason in ASOIAF Robert says he can’t go anywhere without seeing a Blonde Haired Lannister in his way. She wants her people around the source of power.
Sylvanas rules by invoking a mentality to believe she is the horde. So who is she going to have around her, people who will take up that, Blood Elves and Forsaken. When she motioned for the BE mage to port magni I got a instant Palpatine vibe when he motioned for his dark guards to leave him when Yoda crashed the party, if you’re that type of ruler you’re going to have loyalists and you’re going to ensure they are around you.
She instills loyalty in BE’s and Forsaken better than a Tauren or DS Troll. When Vol’jin was Warchief we saw an increase of Head hunters in Orgrimmar, it seems a honor type thing to be the people who have a Warchief in Orgrimmar, what it does it give BE’s and Forsaken? Positions, a feeling of superiority perhaps. What does it do for Sylvanas? It ensures she has loyalists, and yes people to reinforce the idea she is the Horde. Because that was the mentality she ruled as, its almost a slight to question her.
I truly believe the Eastern Kingdoms Horde has a different vibe / personality / slightly more ruthless undertone vibe to it. Slytherin/Lannister/Sith Empire feel in its story telling. And Sylvanas is a leader who personifies that. So who is the EK Horde? Blood Elves and Forsaken, so she personifies their ideals, she’s also Banshee Queen so Forsaken see themselves in her, and a former Elf so BE’s see themselves in her.
There is a reason Blizzard has them as her ardent supporters.
He could have very easily said “Despite forcing my hand in the Northrend campaign” and then told of her sacrifice saying he respects it but he sugar coats it instead.
I mean, again, going with “she forced my hand in North rend” makes its about her ravenge and about Arthas. not her heroism when she was still a hero.
Sylvanas could have stacked loyalists through the forsaken, but not the BE or any other factions
But Blood Elves are willing loyalists, it seems right up a Blood Elf’s alley to see one of theirs even though she’s not anymore, in the position of Warchief.
And I truly do not think the average BE would begrudge Sylvanas for her Northrend campaign, Lor’themar I think declined didn’t he? And then she forced his hand so of course he resents that. But I think Sylvanas probably was slighted he said no to begin with so they probably view that same situation very differently.
You see it as blackmail I see it as calling in a debt, and even if it was known I think BE’s might see it that way too, we cannot know for sure but we cannot know for sure its widespread knowledge of the personal conversation between Lor’themar and Sylvanas either. Lor’themar views the experience with distaste because she forced his hand and rightfully so I wouldn’t like being forced either, but had it been me someone who subscribes to knowing when to return a favor I would have found a way to help anyways.
Lor’themar stated he could not field the expedition after the civil war they endured. Sylvanas said “too bad, so sad, do it or I pull the forsaken fromt he ghost lands.”
That is text book black mail.
Trying to paint it any other way is simply wrong. it doesn’t change the story for acknowledging it for what it is Lann.
Sylvanas was not slighted, she wanted the blood elves because she wanted everything in her favor to kill Arthas. It is why after he died to someone else, she saw no purpose and leapt off ICC to her second death.
She was always known as a selfish character, and you do get to see how greatly she has changed ever since her actions in WC3.
Its textbook “the heck you aren’t” type mentality. I think the average Blood Elf would see her sacrifice twice over once in defense of Quel’thalas and once in retaking it and some might even side with her they should help her take out ARTHAS of all people. I understand why Lor’themar dislikes it, and I subscribe to your argument as far as that goes. But Lor’themar didn’t end up being a loyalist did he? But BE’s did, enough to be poster boys and girls for it next to Forsaken.
She was slighted. She’s the type of character who would view saying no to her as a slight, the moment she offered to help Quel’thalas it was probably two fold she probably did want to help to a small extent but to a larger extent she was building credit on a debt she could call in. And then Lor’themar says no? She played the classic “I brought you into this world I can take you out” mom card, it is what is, and I see why HE dislikes that.
I’m one of person who likes her better now, and I don’t think any of her personality traits are negative, but I’m also the biggest Cersei Lannister fan so I don’t think we will see eye to eye on Sylvanas being selfish when I see it benefitting BE’s.
But I do hope I helped you see why BE’s would support her. Blizzard has written the EK Horde very differently from Kalimdor Horde, and I think it makes perfect sense to have the person who personifies that mentality, who also has a I am the Horde mentality, inspire loyalty from those groups.
How is it beneficial to the BE’s when all it does is endanger their already reduced numbers? The war stood with little benefit for the Horde, but they followed their culture and obeyed their warchief.
Honestly, that is why many players have issuer with the story. The horde is supposed to be this hodge podge of members who don’t always see eye to eye and will fight to the death if needed.
We didn’t get that though, we had the Horde being unusually obedient.
Sylvanas won’t be returning as warchief. Not after the movement to a council and not after her complete and utter betrayal of the Horde. It simply is not going to happen.
More than likely we’ll get a redemption arc that everyone will hate, but they’ll still play the game anyway.
No…not really.
We saw this when Garrosh became warchief how cairne blood hoof immediately took qualms with the issue.
We see any time a leader is controversial that the horde usually has issues and the individual groups begin doing their own thing. As seen in MoP, as well as Vanilla WoW up to MoP.
But if she is the Banshee Queen, and she represents death, and we subscribe to the belief she is the Horde how is that bad for us? We would be on the winning team, and if we die she raises us as a Dark Ranger.
She is a reigning sovereign leader, why wouldn’t she view her people as tools every leader in history in societies that have the type of authority that a Warchief has has done so.
And this is my point about BE’s I think they are the perfect fit for the Horde, as shown through the years, and their proven tendency to align with EK Horde which is embodied by Sylvanas as the personality of the Horde while she’s been Warchief.
But Alliance aligned High Elves that are being asked for have a different value system / culture that they would immediately follow someone like Alleria / Vereesa over being a loyalist to Sylvanas.
Except for the fact she says the Horde was nothing but a tool and does not care about being for the Horde. So where is this belief coming from outside of blind fanaticism? It makes no sense at all.
Except that Thrall didn’t/. Vol’jin didnt.
Garrosh largely didn’t until they ruined his character in MoP.
Sylvanas is literally the only warchief with the ulterior motive of killing everything and everyone.
Did…you not do the Sylvanas loyalist storyline? She literally says the Horde were a tool and though she sympathized with the forsaken, they were also a tool for her ends.
She also says “Everything will be mine in death” in three sisters.
Like…bruh…
She’s showing disappointment in the Forsaken yes I think that started with when they showed sympathy with Humans, and they associated with a would be Usurper.
I wanna focus on this, if her goals are our goals and she’s benefitting us, us helping further her cause which is our cause is not a negative thing??
Her sisters won’t willingly side with her… so she intends to have them in undeath yeah? Thats kind of her personality.
She expects Lor’themar to return his debt, he says no, she pulls the oh yes you will card.
The other Valkyr won’t serve her? She pulls an attempt to bend them to her will in Stormheim.
Her sisters won’t join her in life? She’ll raise them as Dark Rangers.
Thats just her personality some people are like that.
My point is her personality is embodied in the EK Horde, that BE’s and Forsaken represent, and that is why we see them as loyalists.
And HE’s Alliance Aligned High Elves do not have the values that would have them subscribe to what Sylvanas was selling.
