True, many classes have skills that have reduced effectiveness beyond X targets, and that gogogo mentality results in many classes not having proper resources to do a full rotation for the entire wall to wall group, and the spend half the dungeon waiting on resources to replenish, which suprise suprise, results in packs taking longer than if you did them only like 8 at a time.
There is too much gear ilevel inflation. They have just turned a blind eye to it the last 3 years.
You cannot just keep doing stat squishes forever.
Timers shouldn’t be used for anything other than Esports competitions. It promotes the toxic “GO GO GO!” mentality. Blizzard is weird for promoting this for pugs.
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I was healing in a dungeon the other day and by the time my game loaded in the tank had pulled to the first boss and wiped… And I was immediately kicked for being too slow. If the group can do it gogogo to your heart’s content, but this trend of believing you’re the invincible action hero that other players must cater to has gotten insane, and the unwillingness to even check if your entire party is in the dungeon turns people off of not only dungeons as content, but the game as a whole. Which, to remind folks who tend to forget, is important because without new players every multiplayer game does eventually die.
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People want to relax after a hard days work and just play the game not having to feel like they are still on the clock.
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I would like to comment, but Captain Too-good-to-be-good Supertank three rooms ahead left 6 mobs chaincasting on me and I have to run back because the healer had a stroke and can’t res.
Oh… Supertank just BISrespected us and left the dungeon halway through.
What a guy.
Truly one of the elite.
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Tanking Dawnbreaker, I thought we had to kill the captains before we could engage the boss. I had only just pulled 1 mob and I instantly got called the R word and then the DPS proceeded to spam ping on the boss and yell to just pull it.
To be fair, dungeons have been nothing but aggressive use of the ping system together with DPS pulling and forcing the group to speed up.
What the actual F is wrong with those people?
I think it’s because there’s so much pullable trash, it’s almost continuous. The next pack is just close enough, and then the next one and the next one.
Compare that to Wrath heroics where each pull was sizeable distance apart and pulling everyone felt like a stretch
My biggest complain is that it’s difficult to pay attention to mechanics this way. It seems like it’s designed to teach by failure than observation. There is no way to clearly see what to do in all those big blobs of trash. They used to dose it better.
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I was in an instance last night. The tank was running the instance as a normal headed tank. Pulling small manageable groups. We were melting them down fairly well, we had a decent pace - somewhat slower than when you pull half the instance. And someone was complaining about that.
I’d rather a slow run than a fast one where the tank can’t handle the pulls they pull.
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I haven’t seen a DPS hassle a tank in the three months since I came back.
Is this going on in whisper?
Sure, but the average M+ simply isn’t pulled this way even today. I’ve never had a team start a key prior to everyone being in the dungeon, so zooming off before everyone is there also doesn’t happen. I could definitely believe that M+ and people watching MDI contributed to the frequency with which tanks are attempting these absolutely massive pulls without a care given to the state of their group. But assigning all blame for many players for behaving this way to M+ is just a fallacy.
The reason it’s happening is because even mediocrely played tanks are basically unkillable in these lower level dungeons. Players have always gone as fast as the game and their own skill let them. And it’s no different here. A lightly geared tank can literally solo the normal and heroic dungeons as soon as the game will allow them to queue for it, there’s no reason for them to care what the rest of their team is doing (for the most part). I suspect the only reason many even bothering to queue is that they get bonuses for doing so and it will be faster so long as even one teammate is able to keep up with them to add some supplemental damage.
Many of us like having a timer; it forces a level of innovation on resource allocation on the group that doesn’t exist without a timer. I agree there’s a place for a non-timer version of scaled dungeons as well, which is why I wish the DF S4 rework would have brought an entirely new progression tree for timerless, affixless scaling dungeons rather than just shifting the entry point of M+. But to act like it’s some massive mistake to use a timer as a mechanic for M+ because some portion of the player base doesn’t like the timer is pretty selfish.
All of these “it’s always X player’s fault” comments are wrong. It depends on what the group wants. Whoever queues into a random groups with a different idea on how fast it should go from the majority of the group and acts upon that different idea is being selfish. Sometimes that will be the tank that wants to pull wall to wall and other times it will be the healer who wants to RP walk through the dungeon. Anyone who wants to ensure they get a group of like minded folks should stop queuing with random players and find their own group.
Yes, because even then tanks couldn’t really survive doing more than that. But the desire to go as fast as possible was there, which is what was being discussed.
Which was still 8 years before M+ came out…
The timer is dumb. It is lazy design. The problem with players like you, that you are so accustom to this system, that any attempts at debate just fall flat on their face.
A huge swath of MMO players hate this content. The achievement stats prove this. M+ numbers are heavily inflated because of the welfare gear it provides. People don’t run this crap because it is fun, only a handful of ARPG style players like grinding the same content over and over again with silly gimmicks (affixes) added in to make it seem like the content is somehow different.
M+ is BORING, it was a system devised to just eat player time without having to actually make new content.
M+ ain’t paying the bills Dwelknarr, so why design so much of the endgame around a system that most players loathe?
No one can admit it, but M+ was a mistake for WoW, the resources they dumped into this could have been better off spent making new content, making more intersting specs, instead of the boring M+ classes we have today.
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That’s one player’s opinion, which of course you’re welcome to have. I disagree.
Show me one quote from me where I have ever told someone they are wrong for not liking the timer. In the paragraph you quoted of mine, I actually even admitted there should be a game mode that doesn’t have a timer for players who want scaled dungeon content without time pressure. I am fully in favor of additional ways for players to engage with the game, just not at the expense of the way I enjoy. Why is it so important M+ be ripped out of the game as opposed to addressing the specific problems you and some number of others have with it?
You provide zero evidence for a single one of these claims. Nor do I think it’s even possible you could have evidence.
There were more periods of time in WoW’s history in which M+ wasn’t a part of the game than it has been. In that time, we saw none of what you are suggesting Blizzard could have added instead of putting time into M+. What evidence is there to suggest Blizzard wouldn’t have simply kept producing raid and lackluster PVP content had they not implemented M+ with Legion?
Totally agree with you. I’ve tanked since Cata and the way the game plays now is just complete crap. The GOGOGO mentality actually makes players worse, imo, in terms of skill. Fast huge pulls lead to mistakes and deaths, where smaller slower pulls lead to controlled encounters and overall faster dungeon runs. The gameplay today is just, mostly, brainless. Blizzard needs to completely change their gameplay loop, they need to make the world immersive again, utilize the entire game world, get away from M+ dungeons all together, create a more meaningful experience by giving us activities that aren’t just run dailies/world quests/dungeons over and over again, and they need to get away from dumping gear on us; remember when epics actually meant something? It’s so easy to get gear its just boring TWW is probably the worst expansion I’ve seen so far.
Do you have any suggestion for what that gameplay loop might be? So many players that dislike M+ are happy to call for its removal with complete disregard for those who might enjoy it, yet rarely do they have an idea for what the environment would be to replace the loss of the mode.
This is actually a problem. There should be a way for players to target certain pieces outside of the great vault. Also there should be an incentive to finish the dungeon EVEN IF you got your item. The crests are kind of immaterial.
smh I feel like we are paying these guys to give them free ideas.
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As a full time tank, it’s not a lack of taunts. I have 100% of the aggro 100% of the time. It’s poor placement, poor prediction of AoE mechanics, and not standing near the source of healing that causes most people to die ‘because the tank pulls too much’.
Honestly, if everyone just stood 50 ft back and watched it would go the same minus everyone being dead, so unless you can handle the mobs, maybe you should pick up two or three in the corner and beat them up while the real work is done.
Blame blizz for not releasing more difficult content for weeks when everyone was maxing out on gear instantly.
There will be a lot of M+ whine next week . Just wait a couple of days
That’s Basically Blizzard encouraging it , they could have chosen not to do M+ and it was fine Like that since vanilla , it wasn’t needed but now they have opened new front that they have to balance around instead