That is entirely your argument. You say the diversity of the Forsaken ranks brings into question the legitimacy of her status of leadership. It’s your thread’s title.
Ergo, if your padding out the diversity and downplaying the narrative heritage of the Forsaken to Lordaeron is not actually indicative of demographics, your logic would indicate Calia CAN lead a Lordaeronian majority people.
Though assuming that where the Forsaken came from is a big deal is a mistake. The original portion of the Forsaken were all struck by the Scourge at Arthas Menethil’s command. Calia’s desire to help (not lead at this point) is based in guilt for her family, not entitlement from her lineage. So the whole Lordaeronian deal is a red herring, now that I think about it, except for Forsaken tethering themselves to the Lordaeron identity, even if in some small and diminishing part.
Not on the basis of “Well there is X population from here, and Y population from there, and whichever demographic is the majority gets the Official Forsaken Identity™” but on the basis of Calia’s former status as Princess of Lordaeron would be completely meaningless to the bulk of the Forsaken, just as if someone raised Tiffin and she tried to lead the Forsaken, her former status as Queen of Stormwind would be meaningless to any Forsaken not from Stormwind.
This is the problem with trying to pigeonhole the Forsaken into having an identity based exclusively around one specific defunct political entity. It’s one of the reasons why humans in the Alliance tend to rally around the Alliance rather than around any one single nationality; because one nationality being the basis for legitimacy is inherently exclusionary.
Heck, apparently a Lordaeronian (Turalyon) takes the throne of Stormwind in the next expansion, even after it was suggested that a Gilnean do so.
A) This isn’t true, most of them were slain by the Plague of Undeath.
B) Wow that’s some hypocrisy. So their backgrounds insofar as how they died don’t matter, except apparently if that background involved Lordaeron, in which case you’re suddenly arguing that it’s critical narrative heritage.
Well said. That’s why I enjoy writing Forsaken characters so much. The only firm origin they need is they were a human, or humanoid, who died somewhere near Lordaeron and were raised or otherwise became undead elsewhere and later joined the Forsaken.
Of my six undead toons, only two are Lordaeronian. The others are Alteraci, Westfallen, Dalaranian and a Vargul (as represented through growth potions and toys).
And I can’t picture any of them caring about her lineage.
Diversity means next to nothing when the narrative that Cdev have pushed for over a decade is that the bulk Forsaken are from Lordaeron. We know that the Forsaken are diverse, we know that Lordaeron was diverse. Nothing new to see here.
Their are tons of references that tie the Forsaken background to Lordaeron and Calia’s narrative since her reemergence is the nail in the coffin.
The very 1st sentence in the Forsaken’s official race page states:
Death offered no escape for the scores of humans killed during the Lich King’s campaign to scour the living from Lordaeron.
Lets put this subject to rest please.
Forsaken are primarily Lordaeronian, that’s the narrative that cdev have pushed and will continue to push.
A) Lordaeron in that context could easily mean the continent of Lordaeron, not the kingdom
B) If we’re just going to blindly go along with whatever Cdev says even if it contradicts established lore then what’s the point of even having a discussion forum?
Lordaeron is the name of the northernmost continent in the Eastern Kingdoms. The Eastern Kingdoms actually comprise three continents, namely Lordaeron, Khaz Modan, and Azeroth.
I’d link you to the wowpedia article but I can’t post links.
I would also point to the Worgen intros as a counterexample:
from the creation screen:
The worgen were first unleashed upon the Eastern Kingdomsby Archmage Arugal during the Third War. Primarily used as a weapon against the Scourge, the beasts soon proved to be a burden greater than the humans of Lordaeron could bear. A mysterious curse began to spread among those who fought alongside the wolf-men, causing them to become worgen themselves.
And from their narrative intro:
Led by their indomitable king, Genn Greymane, the proud citizens of Gilneas once stood with the Alliance against the vile orcish Horde that sought to conquer all of Lordaeron.
and
Now, many years later, as the seemingly unstoppable undead Scourge marches across Lordaeron, human civilization once again teeters on the edge of destruction.
These are all instances of the word being used in reference to the continent rather than the kingdom.
It lists the RPG books as the source for dividing the Eastern Kingdoms up into continents, which is non-canon. Also I find it difficult to believe that Quel’thalas would allow their continent to be named after a human kingdom that spouted up after them.
I guess it’s one of those poor planning decisions by Blizzard, naming everything the same thing or based off what was there ‘currently’ when it was named by the creators.
Azeroth is a continent, a kingdom, a planet and a titan. Draenor is named after the Draenei that come from another planet even though life was already there, and Lordaeron is a kingdom and a continent despite numerous civilizations being there before it.
Which was both released before and after Arthas went murder hobo on his people. I would argue he killed more people following the plague’s apparent dissipation following his Northrend trip and subsequent return to the capital, whereupon he unleashed his undead armies at the very heart of the kingdom of Lordaeron and then murdered his merry way to Quel’Thalas.
It’s not hypocritical to absorb new data and the draw a new conclusion. That’s called progression. And you should be happy, because you helped me progress my opinion.
You progressed my opinion to “The demographics of the Forsaken are ultimately irrelevant to Calia’s interest in helping them, because her interest is not based on her royal lineage, but her guilt in the fact that it was a Menethil that gave rise to them through heinous torture, and so as a Menethil she will help them. So their diversity has no meaningful hand in disputing the notion that Calia can be a faction leader.”
That still doesn’t work because a significant portion of the Forsaken now were killed and raised by the Forsaken themselves. If we’re allowed to wildly speculate then there is even a distinct possibility that the Forsaken old guard from the Third War might even be outnumbered by undead that were never Scourge at this point.
I think we have to be real, the rejection of Calia has nothing to do with her lore, but with how she looks, if she was wearing a black dress, everyone would be like I love my new goth gf
Well, for one, most of that significant portion was done in Lordaeron.
But you missed the bigger point of my post. The conclusion you helped me to draw.
“The demographics of the Forsaken are ultimately irrelevant to Calia’s interest in helping them, because her interest is not based on her royal lineage, but her guilt in the fact that it was a Menethil that gave rise to them through heinous torture, and so as a Menethil she will help them. So their diversity has no meaningful hand in disputing the notion that Calia can be a faction leader.”
Actually, a lot of it was done in Gilneas, Stromgarde, Dalaran, and Kul’Tiras. In other parts of Lordaeron such as Andorhal and Hillsbrad a significant portion of victims were from Stormwind as well.
Yes, I get it, but it doesn’t work because the Menethils are as incidental as Ner’zhul or Kil’jaeden for a large portion of the Forsaken in terms of how their undeath came to be. If I’m a farmer from Westfall who was killed and raised by the Forsaken in Andorhal, I don’t suddenly become “Calia’s” or develop some sort of connection to her any more than I do to Sylvanas.
More like her looks don’t really make things better…
But sure, let’s reduce people’s reservations against Calia as Forsaken leader to “edgelords just wanting a proper goth gf figurehead to follow”. Very insightful, as always.
well i am not seeing any real good reasons, people just made a box that says “This is what a forsaken is.” A box mind you that not even sylvanas fits in, and just rejecting calia