The Forsaken are too diverse for Calia to lead

So, now that we know that the worst has come and that Calia is apparently going to be the Forsaken leader moving forward (even though basically nobody is happy about this) I think it’d be a good opportunity to remind everyone what the Forsaken actually are, and how what they are undermines the most common argument in favor of Calia leading them (that she’s the rightful Queen of Lordaeron)

The strongest connection that the Forsaken had to Lordaeron, certainly since Cataclysm, was that they resided in the ruins of Lordaeron’s former capital city. The argument that they are largely composed of former Lordaeron citizens and, hence, constituted a successor state or even a cultural continuation requires ignoring what precisely it is that unites them, and the background and evolution of the faction.

When the Scourge invaded the Eastern Kingdoms, it already constituted a number of former humans, many of them former Cult of the Damned but also numerous victims from Ner’zhul’s campaigns in Northrend. When they spread the Plague of Undeath, it was of course indiscriminate, and the bulk of the victims were citizens of Lordaeron.

Now, mind you, what constituted a “citizen of Lordaeron” at the time is highly complex. Lordaeron was the center of the Alliance, and the healthiest kingdom of the Alliance at the time in terms of strength. Straholme was a major economic hub, and Lordaeron City was the capital of the Alliance. This is because most human kingdoms of comparitive power, most notably Stormwind, had been destroyed or ravaged in the First or Second Wars.

After the First War, the remaining population of Stormwind fled to Lordaeron in a massive refugee fleet, including the former prince turned king Varian Wrynn. They would spend the Second War in Lordaeron, and as Warcraft Chronicles Volume 3 stated, after the war ended many of them had put down new roots in the north, and opted to stay rather than return to Stormwind.

So even before the Scourge invasion, Lordaeron was already pretty diverse in its demographic composition. If you looked at any given Lordaeron citizen there was a decent chance they were from Stormwind, or from one of the smaller kingdoms that was decimated by the war such as Stromgarde or Alterac. All of these people with non-Lordaeron backgrounds would be among those killed and raised when the Plague of Undeath was unleashed, and you can even see this in-game on numerous occasions, such as in the Culling of Stratholme instance, where one can see a number of notable Stormwind NPC’s.

Now, on to the Scourge invasion itself. After Arthas betrayed the Alliance and murdered Terenas, the Scourge had solidified its power in Lordaeron. It would then set its sights beyond Lordaeron’s borders, invading Quel’Thalas, Gilneas, and Dalaran. Casualties from these campaigns from those respective kingdoms would also be raised by the Scourge. In addition, Alliance reinforcements from Stormwind, Ironforge, and Gnomeregan would also be sent to fight the Scourge in the aftermath of Terenas’ death. Casualties from this campaign would also be added to the Scourge’s ranks.

Enter the Forsaken. After Illidan’s attack on the Frozen Throne weakened the Lich King, a portion of the Scourge broke free of the Lich King’s domination and would go on to form a new organization under Sylvanas Windrunner. We don’t have any solid numbers, but it stands to reason that the demographics of this new organization, the Forsaken, would roughly mirror the demographics of the Scourge. As such, the Forsaken were composed of undead whose origins were not just from Lordaeron, but from Dalaran, Quel’thalas, Stormwind, and even Gilneas and Gnomeregan.

This is reflected in Forsaken questing and among Forsaken NPC’s. One of Deathknell’s Rogue trainers is from the venerable Trias family of Stormwind. Another NPC in Brill was a Saldean, of the Saldean farmstead in Westfall. There are several Forsaken mages who play a role in Forsaken questing who hail from Dalaran, and even quests in Silverpine referencing people with Gilnean connections.

So, from their inception one of the Forsaken’s most notable features was that they were surprisingly cosmopolitan, and a melting pot of people from all over the Eastern Kingdoms who were unified by their shared undeath.

Fast forward to Cataclysm, where the Forsaken have gained the ability to raise their own undead and incorporate them into the Forsaken. Before the expansion takes place, they attack Southshore and kill much of its population, raising those they can into the Forsaken. Southshore, it should be noted, had a sizeable Alliance garrison, and Alliance questing in Vanilla makes clear the presence of people from Stormwind.

They use this power to embark on an expansionist campaign, and in the process they kill and raise large numbers of humans from Dalaran (in Silverpine,) Gilneas, and Stromgarde. They also expand into the plaguelands, where they kill and raise a massive number of farmers from Stormwind. As of BfA, we saw that Sylvanas gained the ability even to raise non-humans, and as a consequence a large number of Night Elves were raised, and added to the Forsaken’s ranks. This is in addition to the number of Kul’Tirans raised during the subsequent war with the Alliance.

So, to recap, the Forsaken are as of this time composed of:

Humans from Lordaeron
Humans from Stormwind
Humans from Gilneas
Humans from Dalaran
Humans from Stromgarde
Humans from Kul Tiras
High Elves from Quel’thalas
Night Elves from Darnassus
Gnomes from Gnomeregan

I emphasize all of this because it poses serious problems for Calia’s nominal legitimacy as leader of the Forsaken. The arguments in favor of this development almost entirely hinge on the fact that she was the heir to the throne of Lordaeron, and that the Forsaken should be treated as a monolithic entity with an identity based specifically around Lordaeron.

But what connection to Calia would humans not from Lordaeron have? What connection would undead High Elves have? Undead Gnomes? Undead Night Elves?

The unifying theme of the Forsaken, and the core of their identity, has always been their undeath, and the fact that all of them were made equal by it, regardless of their status or background or nationality when they were living. They were a new order, and behaved as such. In cases where their former lives did come up, it was almost always either with apathy or contempt.

All of this is undone by the simplistic, reductionist notion that they are fundamentally “Calia’s people” on the sole basis of her being royalty from just one of the many, many different places that the Forsaken have come from. Their connection to Lordaeron wasn’t, nor should it be, anything beyond the place where they happened to have formed their new faction.

This is made all the more important by the fact that they no longer control Lordaeron. They are now true refugees, not even based in the Eastern Kingdoms anymore. This should be an opportunity for them to truly come into their own as a unique faction with an independent identity. At this point they are no longer “of Lordaeron” any more than they are “of Stormwind” or “of Gilneas”

In short, Calia leading the Forsaken on the basis that they are “her people” or the Forsaken “are Lordaeron” robs the Forsaken of the diversity that is essential to their identity as a group of renegades all equal and united in undeath.

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You mentioned the Trais family and Saldean.

Did their family not migrate to Stormwind and Westfall after the fall of Lordaeron? Many people fled from Lordaeron and resettled in Stormwind. Anduin even claimed this in the BtS novel I believe when he told Calia she could raise an army.

Right now my character’s leader is Turalyon. He is not a Lightforged Draenei, yet he still leads them. He has gained the respect of the Naaru Xe’ra and therefore is capable of leading the Lightforged Draenei.

Calia is capable of leading because aren’t a majority of the Forsaken of Lordaeron? I mean why were they in Lordaeron for so long? Why not branch out and move their capital elsewhere? Perhaps because of the significance, it holds to many of their population?

I understand they’re a diverse group. But so was Lordaeron. The city held many races from the Alliance of Lordaeron. You didn’t see those races complained that the Menethil family was in charge.

So yeah, those elves and gnomes know who Calia Menethil is and what she represents. When they were alive King Menethil led them as the Alliance of Lordaeron. And in death Calia Menethil can lead them as the Forsaken of Lordaeron.

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Plenty, in fact one could argue that at this point probably the majority, of the Forsaken didn’t become Forsaken by way of the Scourge. Many of them became that way because they fell in battle against the Forsaken (or the Forsaken invaded their home) and were then raised, or were killed and raised by the Scourge in one of Arthas’ campaigns outside of Lordaeron. The Scourge didn’t really care much for borders.

You are falling into the same trap of assuming that every Forsaken’s background is the same, namely that they were all from Lordaeron and all died in the same way in the same circumstances. This is demonstrably false.

To give an example, why would someone from Dalaran who was killed by the Forsaken invasion in Cataclysm see Calia as legitimate? Why would a High Elf? Why would someone killed and raised in Gilneas or Kul Tiras by the Forsaken see Calia as legitimate? And don’t even get me started on the fact that apparently the Forsaken now includes Night Elves.

If the sole reason for Calia to rule the Forsaken is “she’s from Lordaeron” then “what about all the Forsaken who aren’t from Lordaeron” is a perfectly valid thing to bring up.

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If I’m killed by Sylvanas’s Forsaken because of her conquest into my lands and then this very nice lady who was once the daughter of the kind King Menethil, I’d most likely go with the kind lady… because the unkind Forsaken were the ones who killed me.

Like I mean, I don’t think victims of the Forsaken want the Forsaken to keep making more victims.

Sure, but this isn’t legitimacy for Calia beyond the fact that she isn’t Sylvanas, which last I checked, would make everyone qualify except for Sylvanas.

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So you admit that if Forsaken were majority or almost entirely Lordaeronian, Calia would have a legit claim to lead them?

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But aren’t the leaders of the Forsaken society those older Forsaken from Lordaeron? So won’t they get more of a say of the leader is?

Like the elites of the Forsaken society won’t care what some new comer Gnome has to say in the leadership of the Forsaken. The elites, old school Lordaeron Forsaken, will with their seniority make Calia the leader.

Look at Before the Storm novel and the Desolate Council. The Desolate Council were the leaders of the Undercity when Sylvanas left. They were all previous Lordaeron citizens because they have the most seniority in society.

No Gnome or Elf is going to have a say who is leading the Forsaken because their corpses aren’t as rotten as those from Lordaeron.

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They aren’t, so it doesn’t matter.

There is nothing to indicate that the Forsaken are divided by caste on the basis of former nationality or race, especially in light of the whole “led by a Thalassian for most of their existence” thing.

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There is though. The Desolate Council in Before the Storm. They are stated as the leadership of the Undercity when Sylvanas left and they’re all humans from Lordaeron, aren’t they?

it’s because they’ve been Forsaken the longest and are respected members of society.

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There is nothing that states that all members of the Desolate Council were from Lordaeron, we just happen to see a couple of members that are.

And frankly, even if they were all from Lordaeron, you are assuming that they then therefore must be desolate council because they were from Lordaeron, which would be a post hoc fallacy.

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Actually, it does. I’m a sucker for hypotheticals. Yes or no answer, please.

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The take away from this whole Calia thing is that no one is happy. People on Alliance aren’t happy Anduin is King and Forsaken aren’t happy Calia is supposedly going to be their leader. No one is happy and everyone is angry.

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You’re trying to derail the thread by trying to get a simplistic answer that would be easier for you to argue against. If you have a counterargument to my posts then feel free to post it.

This as well. The only people who seem to be happy are people who enjoy the opportunity to troll both the Alliance and the Forsaken fanbases.

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All of this talk of monarchy and claims is moot if you ask me. Calia didn’t go through what the forsaken did. She’s not even really undead?(I have no idea what she is). In the end, the person who leads the forsaken should probably know their struggles.

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To be fair, she did go through the same experience that most current Forsaken probably did, which is “get killed by the Forsaken and then inexplicably join them.”

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No, I’m trying to get a honest answer from you about the logical reverse conclusion that if you believe Calia shouldn’t lead because Lordaerons make up a minority of the Forsaken, then she should if Lordaeronians were indeed the majority.

That you assume its derailing when it’s actually well within the parameters of your thread’s premise tells me that you won’t give an answer cause you didn’t think through the proper implications of you logic here.

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This isn’t my argument and perhaps you should reread my OP.

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Valid points. We don’t know what will happen, subvert expectations is a thing. If it
happens depends how it will happen. I think now its premature they must build Callia-Forshaken relationship more.

How are the claims moot? We’re playing in a fantasy games with knights and kingdoms.

If this was modern day then yeah sure, you could say it’s moot. But in this setting, monarchies are normal.

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She literally did she was there when the fall of lorderan happened, so what if she wasnt a zombie, sylvanas isnt even a lorderanian