And now we go back to the argument the anti-anti-titanforging crowd likes to throw around. Why do you care what I am wearing? So what if I do lets say…double your damage (an issue with exponential scaling and not IL gap itself btw). Someone doing exclusively solo content will do solo content at 330 IL. They will do it at 370 IL. They will do it, as it stands right now, at 400 IL.
That individual, the casual only doing solo stuff, does not know the difference in damage between someone 360 IL and 415. They will NEVER see someone that high. The world could literally be empty and he wouldn’t know different.
Top looking down does not have that luxury. I DO interact with other people and IL is such a meaningless metric that blizzard does not allow smooth transitions between tiers so when semi-casual timmy wants to move past world quests at 400 IL where does he go?
Now you’re going to play semantics? Does queueable content not exist for people that don’t do organized group content? No warfronts or battlegrounds or LFD/LFR or what about world pvp which isn’t with a group? You’re trying to narrow the scope of the discussion to win a point, a stupid point that we both know is garbage. Try again.
It’s a compromise between systems that have previously only catered to hardcore players and the system we have today.
You say it’s not a compromise for Mythic raiders; which in the context of BfA gearing this appears to be true, but that isn’t the “only” system.
There has been a lot of compromise over many years for more accessible gear and better casual rewards, I’m talking about coming together as an overall system from start to finish and realising a suitable point that benefits all people in the spectrum.
Yes there might be more compromise if you look at it and say “I used to be able to get +30 ilvls now I can only get +15”, but from a more complete picture, not only can you get a higher base reward for that content then ever before (remember when dailies didn’t get gear and world content rewards were subpar to normal dungeons at level cap?) but you also get a +10-15 upgrade chance on top of it, and the ability to choose to guarantee upgrades on pieces you like if you weren’t lucky enough to get it in the first place.
Heck, I’d be happy to say "Cool, everything can forge up to 10+(or 15+), Mythic can only forge up to 5+ (or 10+) if you feel that would make people happy still.
I personally think it would still be an improvement on the current system.
Is a sad sad day I know
Considering the state of PvP rewards at the moment as well… I really feel sorry for dedicated PvPers. I mean I was always one of them, but with the changes to BfA I got out.
Just isn’t worth the effort for the piecemeal rewards you get.
And it will still be amoungst themselves? Unless something like valor were to come back and one of the main sources would be from LFD, no one that isn’t a casual does LFD content. It doesn’t happen. Why would people step DOWN from something like even a M0 dungeon to do a heroic? Or LFR when they do heroic? Or battlegrounds when they are in rated PvP? No one moves DOWN the ladder regardless of the fact titanforging is in the game which is what a lot of you claim is the reason for its implementation mind you.
If an LFR hero doesn’t want to see a mythic raider. They don’t have to. That ball is ENTIRELY in their court because in no world would an “elitist” player go to them.
I agree with what you say, however just for clarity, LFR stupidly tries to entice Heroic/Mythic raiders with augment runes to fill out their queues.
I know a lot of people just buy them of the AH if use them at all. But yeah…Terrible decision imho.
Regardless, the point stands is why would I EVER want to spend 20 minutes (after queue time btw) in a heroic dungeon for a less than 1% chance at an upgrade because it would have to forge 9 times to even COMPETE with a M10 option? This is the group that says you shouldn’t fish for titanforges yet also says that people 410+ IL are showing up in heroic dungeons.
So we’ve shifted from a system that just removes the RNG and maintains the power paradigm to a “compromise” that’s not actually a compromise to just accepting that your initial claim was just blatant deception? I mean. I’m not interested in you pitching anything. I have what I want. Want me to stop advocating against what you’re advocating for? Convince me. You’re not going to convince me by being dishonest or arguing for things I’ve already said I’m staunchly opposed to. Beyond that I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t care how much of a compromise it is between what we have now and what we had long ago. It’s not relevant to me at all because I like the status quo. And clearly according to the recent dev vblogs that came out a few days ago so does Blizzard. They very clearly laid out their thoughts on progression, catch up mechanisms, and other reward systems. They mentioned absolutely nothing that even sounded remotely close to them wanting to turn back the clock on retail.
I’ve never dug duel in a box or even battle box. I’ve always been a fan of meaningful world pvp. WoW has never had that unfortunately. The closest it ever got was tm <> sm and it wasn’t even that meaningful.
See, there’s one easy example I can point at that makes your claim here seem stupid. Which it is btw. Are you telling me no mythic player in the world turns on warmode? Of course you aren’t. Get out of my face with this stupidity. And that’s ignoring the fact that yes, mythic raiders run LFR, and they do dungeons, and they do all other content in the game. As long as players interact in any capacity relative power matters. You have a choice, cry here about something that isn’t going to change or go play Classic. Because they already explicitly told us what they think of catch up mechanisms, reward structure, and power progression. And even if forging goes away, that top to bottom spread isn’t rolling back to the days of old.
Until the difference between players is absolutely zero it wouldn’t matter. Even then, the difference there is going to be even LESS reliant on gear. Someone who actually knows how to play the game is going to win in PvP to an LFR hero even if the LFR hero has 10 item levels on the “better” player. Item level, in the context of competition, is a much smaller factor than individual skill. It’s what people that are 400 IL are able to somehow push 7k single target while others push 18k.
I don’t care about your goalpost shifting. Here, I’ll repeat since I was adding to my last post when you wrote this:
As long as players interact in any capacity relative power matters. You have a choice, cry here about something that isn’t going to change or go play Classic. Because they already explicitly told us what they think of catch up mechanisms, reward structure, and power progression. And even if forging goes away, I mean it could that’s possible even if highly unlikely, that top to bottom spread isn’t rolling back to the days of old.
I was referring more to previous expansions of the game where a smaller percentage of the community was able to do them and people considered it to be “hardcore”.
However I do agree with you, you don’t have the be hardcore to raid.
You say blatant deception and dishonest yet I have clearly expressed my points.
There is no undertone except that which can be contrived.
I simply wrote it out in black and white. You act like I’m doing it for personal gain, yet I am one of the people who would also lose potential levels of upgrades. I’m not suggesting anything that I deem to be favourable to a specific party, my initial suggestion was because I initially deemed it to be equal to all parties.
Admittedly I over looked the chance that in the case of extra TF on lower gears you technically lose out a bit on “potential” upgrades. But we could drag that string out as far as we want, from darkshore about to TF 25 levels to normal dungeons which can TF 85. Where do we set the precedence?
However, I also said previously that the game needs to revise it’s solo content system in general away from the current “just do WQs and then Darkshore every 3 weeks”. That would go hand in hand with any changes so that whilst, as you say those players lose “potential” on upgrades, they would also have different content and potentially solo content that provides suitable rewards with a higher base level allowing them to still achieve, on average equal to or if not better than perhaps what they currently can.
The game is too multi-facetted to consider one area without the other, the fact that people are discussing this as an area does not discount other areas where compensation could and should be made to accommodate.
It depends how you raided in Vanilla and TBC.
There are some changes that are beneficial to the game and accessibility to raids now, absolutely. I don’t believe that they are generally gear related though.
I don’t find having increased gear has been making the game more accessible at all really, all I see are more complaints about requirements for IO or AotC or CE for PuGs.
In terms of Vanilla and TBC raiding, I consider them more hardcore simply because of the time investment involved. Today you can reasonably do a couple of hours of a dungeon and then come back another day do a couple more.
In the past, lack of raid extensions, no progression points after specific bosses (to help zoning), and a significant reliance on consumable items that took a lot of time and or gold to farm maybe it far more difficult to casually raid.
If I tell you I want a lamborghini and you try to sell me a ford escort by first saying “Here it is! Just what you wanted!” then later say “Wait? How is that not a lamborghini?” and then you backtrack to “You’re just too good for a ford escort!” and then agree “Well yeah, but I don’t have a lamborghini to sell you so this is a compromise!” and then say “Okay, you’re right, it’s not a lamborghini.” That would be considered deceptive. That’s what you just did. You knew you were trying to sell me something that I explicitly told you I would not support from the get go and yet you faked it for half a dozen posts and tried to argue about it every step of the way.
Then you understand where other areas need adjusting for me to consider the idea of a cap as a viable alternative to what we have now.
Dont be a jerk yes i got 4 posts on this new forum i had more on on the old ones which stoped last year. I wasnt intetsted in joining this new one cause u has to prove. A rank 1 then 2 then 3 etc b4 u can join or make a post.
Just cause i dont agree with u on pvp dobt make me a troll. U dont like me not agreeing with u well tough.
As i said in 1st post i played a real pvp game unlike what we got here.
The ovetal point was joing a guild to raid as rinku try ti explain it has tons of issues still and im not gonna keep joining a new guild every month untill i find the one i like.
The part about the age does matter cause i dont wanna be in one if i dont drink or smoke or do drugs and soo many people thats all they talk about in guild chat. So if they dont share same ideas with me y should i hear that crap all the time.
Also even if i did fi d one that i did like there still all those same issues i said b4. Im not gonna repeat it.
Works both ways. I need you to prove to me that its a problem to me. Which it isn’t. I don’t buy any progression arguments, especially since it’s usually “after I ran the previous tier for 4 months farming, run at least one (usually multiple) M+ (a totally separate gearing system) a week, PvP to 1800, and every world boss, warfront and emissary my ilevel matches the current tier”. Well “DUH!!”, since people tend to do every system as much as possible, no wonder they’ve hit the wall. The systems are designed for someone to do one of them, and they’d be fine.
I know I won’t and can’t change your mind, but you won’t change mine either.
