I don’t even understand the argument here regardless. Yes, the gap between higher mythic raiders and everyone else is still there. Congratulations? The difference between now and pre-Legion though is almost EVERY other player is chilling probably between 395 and 410 (I will even overcompensate so I don’t get yelled at again) assuming they have stayed subbed the whole patch.
We are on month 5 of the patch so about 20 weeks. Thats at least 10 darkshore and ivus kills and I BELIEVE 3 mythic dungeon weeklies and probably 8 or so timewalking. Even without throwing in random forges or emissaries it would be VERY unlikely for a casual that logs in incredibly sparingly to be less than 390. Throw in all the forges and emissary boxes and they are 400. Heroic raid tier.
The point I am trying to make that even though the gap between mythic and heroic is probably still around 10 IL, the gap between heroic and doing the absolute bare minimum is also 10 IL. There isn’t even a batch for normal mode raiders since they get better gear from the super casual bucket. There SHOULD be a difference in power between players participating in different tiers and it should be roughly uniform between them imho. A mythic raider should be like 8 IL higher than a heroic/m+10 who should be 8 higher than normal who should be 8 higher than semi-casual who should be like 4 higher than world quest hero. Or whatever. The numbers don’t matter.
Also, everything on my character should be remotely uniform, but as it stands gear is all over the place for a lot of reasons. My OCD would love it if my alts at 380 actually had all 380 gear equipped or whatever, but we have 400 pieces cancelling out 360 pieces and 390 with 370 and on and on and on making some upgrades worth a ridiculous amount more. My shaman is 405 equipped with a 370 staff. I have 4 400+ int one handers. No shield.
When it comes down to it all they want to assure is that as a player not doing the highest difficulty content they get more of an edge in bringing their gear up than other players.
Here’s the kicker. Yes, the mythic raider still has the advantage. The funny part is that, say, a 415 (insert spec here) has around 20%+ greater raw potential output than a 400 (same spec here) because power scaling has been out of control for years. Go lower, say 390ish, and the difference is… really big.
So yeah, I’m intensely not worried about how I stack up with Captain Catchup. My complaints about the current systems surround my own sense of progression and the marginalizing of 5mans, professions, reputations, LFR, normal raids, and heroic raids. With a dash of “play the patch” thrown in for good measure.
Having a 75 ilvl gap between Mythic raiding and dungeon content is crazy, even a 30 ilvl gap between dungeon content and WQs, 55 if you include embassies. I honestly don’t know why casual players consider this “ok”, when content designed for them is irrelevant because of scaling content and item upgrades requiring such large ilvl differences between content difficulty.
Being that this is your first reply, I was beginning to think you had me on ignore lol.
No, I wasn’t misinterpreting you, I was going straight to the point… No one plays this game for Titanforges, and it doesn’t take a genius, or even proof to figure out why; in and of itself, TF is not a fun mechanic.
Can you imagine an ad campaign based around TF? Could you imagine Blizzard selling copies of WoW BECAUSE TF was included as a “feature?” I mean, your notion that TF is SO IMPORTANT that people would join/quit over it is silly.
Quite simply, the biggest reason people quit is because the game is no longer fun. Burnout is possibly the largest contributing factor to that, which can be broken down to unrewarding gameplay and repetitive gameplay. Both of which TF contribute to.
Yup. I’m literally more than twice as strong as any of my 370-380ish alts. It’s game-breaking levels of scaling, and it’s directly responsible for the two power squishes we’ve endured so far (with a third not far on the horizon at this rate)
Because they’re getting upgrades, why should they care? Hell, per Ion, it’s perfectly okay for a character to “outgrow” certain content. Like warfronts, or 5mans. Or normal raids. Or heroic raids. World quests, however, are apparently not something you’re allowed to outgrow.
The real tragedy is what all of this does to the pacing and learning curve of the game. You get into the 380-390 range from trivial “no-fail-condition” content and start hitting the gear wall, but decide you want to progress. Normal raids? Sidegrade overall. Keystones? Well if you aren’t already comfortable with them then you’re in quite a pickle, because the low level “learning” keys aren’t going to give you any upgrades and in the higher level keys it’s a tossup which will be more vicious and unforgiving of your inexperience: the dungeon or your party.
Speaking from personal experience, I had quit back in early August after playing the beta for a week or so. I came back in early February, meaning I started the expansion late… If you look at my toon now, you wouldn’t know that. Heck, looking at my ilvl, you probably couldn’t even tell that I quit over a month ago-- because I am just that geared.
I say this because I have heard the “there’s no way to gear” argument before, and it’s frankly not true. I geared up almost entirely through low level keystones. If you look at my raid history, I ran Uldir once on LFR, and that was it. And my guild had stopped raiding at that point (most of the members quit from burnout), so I was PUGGING on top of it all.
If you want to gear, you CAN really gear up, you just gotta lead your own groups.
Yep, and the issue is just how quickly you reach those ranges.
Until base WQ rewards stop upgrading you sky rocket through to 370 before hitting a brick wall in terms of gear progression.
Not only are you “outgrowing” content but you are never experiencing it.
In normal progression curves it feels natural to outgrow content, but when you are experiencing a gear progression that looks more in place on a seismograph as someone aptly said it’s not natural at all.
Some content will be rewarding some won’t, and it’s all based on RNG.
With standard progression curves I experience normal dungeons, before experiencing heroic dungeons, I can experience LFR raids. From there I have the option to participate in more group focused content and I can experience normal raids, and then heroic raids, and potentially mythic raids. Or instead I might have decided I liked dungeons better and experienced the progression of M2-10+.
That 's the difference, I get to experience the content. Players shouldn’t realistically be getting to the point where their only progression is jumping straight into Heroic raids or M10+ without first experiencing the content beforehand.
Catch up between tiers should remain relevant to the “entry point” of that content. If you want to gear up an alt fast, Blizzard has shown that we can provide ways of doing that without just making rewards over the top.
Benthic gear (albeit upgrades are overboard imho) or the tokens from Tanaan or Legion are proof that you can provide alternative alt catch up that can even be done on a main that does not have to be disruptive to the standard gear progression system.
This is how we should be tackling that sort of issue, by offering players choices.
Yea and a drop from heroic raid can titanforge up to mythic ilvl. People who do higher tiers of raiding are generally going to have higher ilvl. So what if a casual occasionally gets a heroic quality piece of loot. How does this hurt you?
I think I have had one or two items titanforge and none of my toons are above 395ilvl. I guarantee anybody who raids above LFR has better gear than I do.
How can you make that guarentee when normal, a tier above LFR, baseline drops 385. 10 IL below you. You expect every piece to titanforge from normal from them? That is what it would take since a warforge of +10 would put them AT your item level.
How bout no thanks. That’s my point. You lied. You aren’t interested in removing RNG, you’re interested in changing the loot paradigm. You claimed it was about removing RNG and actually it’s because you care about the gear other people have. Why lie? I mean, what’s the point? You can just come out and say it. It’s not like we don’t figure it out anyways.
And there is, at the start of a tier. And over a tier everyone catches up to a 20 ilvl spread and then the new tier is released and it starts all over.
Apparently they do or you wouldn’t be crying about people on the lower end of the spectrum being too high.
It hasn’t been this way in years. I’m not sure why you expect that your OCD should dictate game systems.
Why is that crazy? Oh, that’s right, it’s a bogus argument.
And here’s the meat of your ridiculous claim. Do you honestly think that heroic dungeons are content designed for casuals? That’s the argument you’re going to make? You’re so ridiculous it’s only worth pointing and laughing at.
Yes you did. I did not say that TF is so important that people would join/quit over it. That’s your deceptive strawman of my position that you then attack. Do you expect me to argue with you about your spin of my position? Are you going to legitimately going to tell me that you believe no one spends time fishing for forges? No one runs M10+ for forges? No one does WQ’s or Emissaries or invasions or world bosses for forges? I mean, you’re seriously going to tell me that forging != content? If you say that you aren’t worth talking to. If you agree that it is, congrats, you’re acknowledging my point was right and your spin was complete garbage. Which side of that fence are you on?
Hey! Welcome to the fun I had to switch from my usual avatar Avagon to this because it’s the only one with beta classic in dev forum rights. All the usual trash anti-forger arguments and people with a few new faces.
Hi friend! Yeah, it is the same old here… basically they say we don’t like WF/TF so remove it from those who do like it which is a pretty large number of players who enjoy it.
Maybe, I should say hey I don’t like Mythic raiding and it’s bad for the game so we should remove it from the game. You know go back to the old days of raiding when there was only 2 difficulties.
But let me ask WHY it needs to crunch UPWARDS that much. There is a 45 IL gap from LFR and Mythic by design. If someone does not move up the progression ladder why are they deserving of being normalized out at a tier 2 levels higher “over time”?
Because mythic raid gear works everywhere else in the game and there’s no reason why people who do mythic raids should be gods in all game content in comparison to everyone else. It’s not really complicated. Unless, of course, you’re advocating that raid gear not be better than gear from world content in the world, and Mythic+ gear is only good in M+, and pvp gear is only good in pvp, and pve gear isn’t good in pvp, and on and on. Otherwise all systems need to lead to the same place and be given a value that doesn’t give some people massive handicaps across all content relative to others.
It’s called sarcasm…you were acting like the current “loot paradigm” is the holy order that has been WoWs principle for a decade.
I was talking about a compromise, but apparently for some compromise is only fair if it goes one way.
Inflation of an artificial number to compensate for RNG? Just waiting for the cries on the forum when the next ilvl squish occurs again and people complain about “losing power” again.
Players who consider themselves casuals have generally been outspoken about considering content that is not available to be queued for as “non-casual” because any pre-formed group content has the potential to be blocked by requirements of entry such as ilvl or deterministic score such as IO.
So yes, any queueable content is generally considered to be casual. But it’s not just heroics, its normals, it’s LFR, it’s the majority of warfront rewards (outside of quest). It’s even the base of grouped content, normal raids, low M+.
Bring back content specific gear, it’s something else I’ve already said countless times.
You aren’t a god in mythic gear when you jump into PvP against someone with PvP resil and power.
It also opens up multiple gearing progression paths so people can spend meaningful time in the game doing what they want to do.
That’s a symptom of normalization of gear across the board and not mythic gear being “too good” or whatever that means. There is no tier. There are no pvp sets. The same could be said for 2500+ rated pvpers being “too good” at everything or whatever. There is nothing keeping things in their brackets nor has there been since MoP where we lost PVP Power type stuff and it was part of the item’s budget. WoD had the increased IL or whatever but it took up none of the power budget in a PvE setting.
PvP power was useless in mop when blizzard introduced base resilience for everyone.
PvE gear was just better and to balance it they tuned down pve gear sets and trinkets for several ilvls below the pvp gear.
Wait, why should I compromise anything? I have exactly what I want, a system that doesn’t cater to Mythic raiders, one that caters to the average player and (this is the fun part for me) altoholics. And better yet, what, exactly, are mythic raiders compromising in your example? They get a cap that they already had and get the ability to upgrade gear that didn’t forge that they didn’t have. That’s not a compromise, that’s another farce you’re trying to sell. So uh, nice “compromise” there sparky.
I would absolutely agree with that. But we both know that isn’t going to happen. Blizzard has said over and over again they like cross compatibility between aspects of gameplay. They even talked about trinket farming from PvE for highend PvP in their recent videos. This isn’t going away, and unless it does I cannot in any way shape or form support massive ilvl disparity from top to bottom.
See above. It’s not about anything being “too good” it’s about the power disparity between the top and bottom being meaningful enough that it matters but not so huge that it makes people not mythic geared worthless in comparison in other content.
I had to switch from my usual avatar Avagon to this because it’s the only one with beta classic in dev forum rights. All the usual trash anti-forger arguments and people with a few new faces.