No, you are talking about a potential colonizer relationship between the Horde and Tauren. I have been talking about how the Orcs are still colonizers, even if its not at the expense of the Tauren.
Not really.
In case you missed it, the Orcs were based on the Mongols. You know. Colonizers of a magnitude humanity has not achieved since.
Yeah, but trolls hate everyone, especially other trolls.
Ah, and there’s that, ‘othering,’ that goes so hand-in-hand with the colonizer mindset. Tell me, how much more native can you be to a world when you’re literally born of it? Azeroth is a Titan. Races like humans, dwarves, and gnomes are Titanforged.
Trolls are no more native than the others are, particularly as they wouldn’t have existed either if not for the Titans ordering the planet.
Thats not what this thread is about. Maybe make another one to discuss the topic you want to discuss? Because, Solarion, what YOU’RE discussing is a much more nuanced ethical debate. You and I could have fun debating that, and even if we end up disagreeing I won’t think less of you.
The OP is a racist troll.
Edit: and also, please don’t act like I have a “colonizer” mindset, Solarion. My people were enslaved by Imperialist colonizers. You’re better than that.
The topic opened by the OP (trolling, as is acknowledged), was about colonization. We’re still on topic for the thread subject, which is the Horde being colonizers (because they are, every race in the setting more or less is). A discussion can evolve past a basic premise.
I’m honestly surprised you just can’t come out and say, “Well, yes, the Orcs and Trolls were indeed colonizers.”
Solarion, we literally already discussed the difference between colonizer as a neutral term, and the historical baggage that comes with it.
Obviously, objectively, the orcs and trolls colonized Kalimdor. They built settlements in a land they aren’t originally from. I am taking no issue with that, so if you want to argue with someone over this pick someone else.
I am taking issue with the OP’s use of the term colonizer to imply some sort of racism against the Tauren. I have explained several times what the differences are, how they relate to real-life history, and why this was a racist assertion to make.
There also is a major difference when the people LEADING THE CHARGE are also natives, and the enemy is genocidal against other natives. The Tauren were smart enough to see the value in having a massive army on their side, and they used that army intelligently to secure their nation.
The implication that the orcs and trolls are anywhere near the level of European colonization that Native Americans suffered through is racist. You are comparing oppressed minorities joining forces, to the **** of an entire continent by European invaders.
I mean, yeah the thread is racist bait lmao. No one here is arguing that, just the “Orcs aren’t colonizers” point. A good bait post exists specifically because it predates on a debatable topic that’ll incite people. Obviously this topic is ridiculous and racist because the Tauren and Orcs haven’t had issues historically, it’s not racist to assume they’d be allies because Thrall’s horde and the Tauren have similar cultures and values and holding Orcs to what they did in a fel-fueled manipulated craze, i.e. they’re colonizers for the first and second war, is silly. However the question is “Have the orcs ever been colonizers” is debatable, the OP is relying on that ambiguity of when and where you cut off where the orcs are responsible for their actions to bait the thread.
It’s alive because you said a point even you admit is debatable " We can have an ethical debate on whether it was right for the Tauren to help the orcs settle Kalimdor at the expense of the quilboar and centaur", it would’ve just been your post and it would’ve settled back into its grave otherwise. Settling land already owned and lived on is colonization. Thrall’s horde, not being manipulated, fought the Quilboar for land, that’s a fact. It’s not impossible for the Orcs to be colonizers. It’s a historical fact that the Japanese colonized vast swathes of East and South East Asia (And even within the islands of Japan including Okinawans or Ainu people), you can still use the term even if the significance and scale of Europe’s colonization of the Americas and Africa is far more significant.
Also only slightly related: I personally don’t think they were thinking about various stories regarding enslaved Black people finding freedom with Native American folk, though I’d be welcome for a citation. I can see how you’d assume it’s possible, but I’d frankly assume Blizzard just grouped PoC races together and wrote the history to make that make sense.
Right, and I’ve established the distinction between the word itself, and the baggage that comes with it that the OP was implying. I apologize for any confusion, there. As a black person versed in history, when I hear “colonizers”, I think of something that goes far beyond the word itself, which is also what the OP was doing.
So, to make it clear: yes the orcs are literally colonizers. But leaving it at that does a disservice to the context, both in-game and out.
Warcraft 3 was very, very obvious in its references to real ideas, both historical and contemporary (at the time). Were the orcs literally meant to be black people? Of course not. But, like you said, they combined a lot of different oppressed minority cultures into the races of the Horde. They even put the orcs in internment camps for goodness sake. They knew exactly what they were doing and what they were trying to say.
And obviously we know who the trolls were based on. They’re not trying to be subtle, here.
Blizzard was intentionally trying to invoke real-world things people could relate to, so they could understand the stakes at play. The plague spreading through supply lines was especially scary at the time because people were freaking out about anthrax for example. Warcraft has always been a pastiche of real-world references and high fantasy tropes.
So you’re completely correct. Blizzard grouped together a bunch of PoC races when they were inventing this world. But they did it on purpose.
So the obviously minority-coded races joining forces with other minority-coded races to take out genocidal rival tribes is IN NO WAY comparable to classical European colonization.
The Tauren joining the Horde is NOT racist. End of story.
Whenever trolls try to conquer other people’s land, they are colonizers, yes. Solarion, I even admitted this earlier when you tried the gotcha question about trolls, assuming I’d defend them under any circumstance. So I don’t know what you’re trying to prove, here.
My apologies, I did not read that response clearly, and did not understand that was what you were conveying.
That having been said, I still maintain the Orcs are colonizers in the bad sense of the word, and that every race more or less is at this point. It all boils down to a matter of perspective. Who is suffering it at who’s hand is another matter entirely, and to suggest the Tauren suffered colonization at the hands of the Orcs is hilariously, laughably wrong.
But the Orcs are still colonizers in the worst sense of the word. Every race more or less is.
This is incredibly offensive to say to a minority. The evils of real-life, european-style imperialism is not a matter of perspective. To compare a group of oppressed people joining forces with a native tribe to take out their genocidal enemies, to the **** of the Americas, Africa, and Asia is deeply stupid.
So sure, in the literal sense of the word, everyone’s a colonist just like you’re claiming. But that is a disgustingly reductive way of looking at things that causes all sorts of false-equivalencies and real-world harm. It’s the equivalent of saying “Well Africans had slaves too!” while completely ignoring the unique horrors of the trans-atlantic slave trade.
The premise of this thread rests on this implication. You saying colonization boils down to perspective is objectively false, and I gave you a real-world example.
I don’t know how my issue with what you’re saying could be more clear.
Because we’re talking about a world of internment camps, colonization, biological terrorism, and politics.
Because Blizzard themselves drew from real-world ideas and heavy political topics when making Warcraft 3, and even much of modern WoW.
Because real-world examples can be a handy reference point, since generally people still behave like people regardless of setting.
Because this is a story written by humans who exist in the real world and are influenced by it.
As said numerous times since this discussion you and I have been having started, the original premise of the thread is garbage troll bait, and I’m not discussing it at all. Rather, I have been stating the fact that the Orcs are colonizers in the bad sense of the word.
Perspective is a point of it in this fantasy setting. I’m sure the Trolls think themselves the victims of colonization, when they took their lands from the nerubians and other insectoid races. I doubt they saw themselves as colonizers at all.
Fantasy is fantasy. I highly doubt Metzen was hunched over his keyboard, manically licking his lips, writing fanfiction about the sorts of the things the Orcs were doing to the Quilboar, while coming up with this stuff.
Warcraft is not, and has never been the most original of intellectual properties. That it borrows from real world cultures to craft and shape fantasy cultures has less to do with them living out some kind of whitewashing fantasy, and more to do with the fact that they just wanted to add some stuff to the game they thought was cool. The premise that this was all carefully laid out to smear minorities is laughable only in the fact that the writers are not nearly so smart to have crafted a narrative capable of doing so intentionally.
I may be misreading, but you seem to consistently link this back to real world tragedies and atrocities as if it was some kind of intentional plot by the writers, that any time a fantasy race which borrows inspiration from a RL culture does something bad, that it’s some intentional plot meant to make RL people look bad somehow.
I am very, very much saying that the writers drew from basic historical, cultural,a nd political concepts when making their high-fantasy world. It is laughably obvious, almost childish, how Blizzard did this in Warcraft’s early years, but it was charming and felt purposeful. Like they did it to make the world feel more immersive and real.
I am not saying this was some sort of weird “plot” to make anyone look bad. Quite the contrary. Warcraft made me as a minority feel represented in a way many games of the time didn’t do. Like it or not, but “monster-races” are very frequently coded as minorities. WoW (and later Wc3 when I went back to it) was one of the first universes where I saw myself in a monster and felt proud.
I in no way think Blizzard was trying to make the Orcs look bad. That’s literally WHY I’m taking issue with this idea that Orcs are colonizers (in the negative, historic sense, not just the literal word).
Because those natives were misanthropes trying to EXTERMINATE them? For all their savagery, the Orcs and Trolls are not analogues of Western Europeans.