And that is at the heart of what I was saying. By pointing out that people want the game to be designed only with them in mind. We also are pointing at ourselves. Ultimately if they decide to reverse course how do you even know if they are pandering to the wrong people? Perhaps someone just made a valid point to them and they changed their minds. And corrected course. Perhaps me and you are the wrong people.
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âŚAnd After all the threads you spent, bashing on people being elitists and meta-slaves and looking at guides, and praising Ionâs work on Shadowlands by taking an RPG direction, hyping the game as if itâs gonna be the next Skyrim where choices has consequences and you can do anything and everything you canâŚ
âŚIf Ion actually did something like this, actually ban DPS meters⌠then you leave⌠i question if your actually in the RPG game for RPG stuff to begin with. I question whether or not you love RPGâs to begin with if something like that is removed. Heck, i question whether or not you love games to begin with if something like that is removed. 
It is a real genuine shame that you would leave RPGâs if it doesnât have a DPS meter. Thereâs a lot of RPGâs your missing out man, a lot of them doesnât have a DPS meter.
But hey, at least you finally taken my advice on the joke of yours. 
Very ironic coming from you Ralph. The same person telling us to not ignore or learn to adapt to things you dislike, is now telling people to ignore or learn to adapt to things. I guess itâs okay as long itâs things you like. 
There is a sale on Flip flops in Walmart, i suggest you buy like 180 of them.
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(gives RĂ lph a cookie and a hug)
It is my absolute hope that you are correct. I hope Blizzard remains strong in their design goal of making covenant choices more permanent, more impactful. The last thing I want is them caving in, giving in to the minority player base, so that the majority has to suffer for it. If they cave in, there will no longer be choice, just the illusion of it.
Instead of actual choice, you would just be able to switch whenever you wanted to fit to whatever content you were currently doing. It would become mandatory to constantly switch once people figure out what is meta for each aspect of the game. As much as toxic elitest want this to be the case, I hope this is something that never comes into fruition.
Should the players not play how they want to? People playing the same isnât necessarily negative. In fact almost every spec in the game only has 1 viable talent route. At least for single target.
This argument has been going on since the first dungeon groups in vanilla.
Some people have a twisted mindset that whatever is not the currently deemed most effective spec/class/route/gear/whatever itâs useless.
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So you came up with a completely made-up scenario, then assumed everyoneâs reaction, then used that to trash talk those who might have a different perspective than you about it⌠
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Over a decade of playtime and I still donât understand who exactly the elitist are when general refers to them.
No, you get more loot by timing, it isnt legion to 3chest.
And then you invite the meta noob that gets carried by the rest of the team and ppl think he timed dungeons because he was good xD
If a rogue and ww has similar timed dungeons, even if ww is slightly behind or missing one or two he is clearly far more skilled than the rogue because WW due to underperformance has a harder time getting into pugs therefore if he has timed many or most dungeons at a high enough level then he is clearly the better player.
The meta slaves need to be above average in competition and key levels for them to actually be skilled
YOu are literally contradicting yourself, you say âcompetitive with each otherâ which always means at optimal levels and then use the word viable.
Those are two opposite things, all specs are viable and do enough to time 15-20s and do mythic raids, you just want tryhards who play optimally at everything.
And thank god that is no longer allowed in shadowlands unless you plan on waiting for 5x same covenant and meta class : )
I wont
So nobody should do anything without the most optimal comb? Gues we better not play anything without dh/bm mongos, oh wait if i invited those unless they are high mythic raiders they would be pretty terrible half the time so I ll stick to skilled players rather than meta slaves
Because blizzard is no longer allowing them to do that, unless they level and gear 4 of each in shadowlands m+ dungeons of 1 reward per dungeon : )
Well said god of GD!
Is it wrong to ask for at least more enjoyable class rotations?
I remember being a kid playing Diablo 2 landing in Hell mode on my messy characters because i had no clue what i was doing. Not a great time.
I also remember in Valkyrie Profile (one of my favorite games ever), if you donât follow the instructions the story give you and just screw around, eventually you get literally forced into a fight with a superboss that tells you to start over (after beating the crap out of you) because you failed at your job in the game.
Because like I said before, this isnt some argument, it is a philosophical difference in rpg design.
You cant really âchangeâ a philosophy like that because external circumstances dont matter as much, what could change their direction, no philosophy
You can see how Ion never changed his philosophy on this
Azerite gear and reforger failed, his philosophy didnt, the goal was to keep people in one build but people kept paying even 200k to be optimal which he didnt expect, in addition azerite failed because of RNG since people wanted that 3x trait yet they were at the mercy of rng.
Corruption went the same way, his philosophy of making people change into different builds based on rewards didnt get proven wrong, the failure was the fact that RNG let people get 9 gushing wounds while the other guy had avoidance and void ritual.
As you can see, Ion is repeatedly pushing to the SAME direction philosophically, covenants are the latest attempt simply, the issue is whenever or not they are able to deal with the implementation of such a philosophy.
If covenants implementation fails for whatever reasons his philosophy will still be there and next expansion will still follow that philosophy iwth a new more restrictive system.
How would you define wrong, I am supporting a philosophical stance about how rpgs should work.
If the wow subs get reduced severely and money is lost does that make me wrong?
If the wow subs get a huge boost because more casuals are staying in shadowlands instead of leaving after the first month does that make me right?
We are talking fundamental game design here, how things should work in an RPG, many would argue that the right way is the one which makes the game less popular and I tend to agree mainly because I find pandering and trying to attract people with no interest in the core design of a game to be wrong.
Others could focus only on how many people play it and how much money it makes.
Ultimately there is no exact formula to an RPG there is many ever changing elements which design it. The only core part of an RPG is that you are taking on a role of a character and participating in a story. So long as that stays the same the rest is rather malleable. So when it comes to right or wrong, I suppose it comes down to the game part of that. Is it fun? A very subjective statement so really it would boil down to rather or not itâs fun for the right crowd. Which would be defined by either the vision, or the money it brings. Depending on what the company finds more important creative process, or income. That is where we could determine who is right/wrong.
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You canât really do that if you said yourself you would leave if thereâs no DPS meter.
Ion mentioned another part of RP, the stat driven aspect of it.
In the Preach interview he said, yes thereâs the rpers who pretend to be someone who they are not but thereâs that 2nd stat aspect to it which is where I come.
It is the part where I open an rpg, see all the options, skills, specs, systems and I instantly become interested in trying out so many builds and thinking of one thing I ll excel at or combine two rly strong things to excel even more in that area.
That is what he means, which is what i happen to enjoy doing.
So what happens if the devs are making the game to be fun for their main crowd and are not interested in another crowd, that other crowdâs only choice is to leave
And kinda off topic but fun sadly isnt as subjective as people want to believe, devs can easily create a game where it is âfunâ by making the person live in the delusion of power, which is why you see many people saying that âtwo shotting other playersâ is âfunâ when they are the ones doing the two shotting and it probably feels fun to destroy others, but that aint healthy or good
I mean letâs be honest, companies will always care about money above else outside extremely few rare examples.
That is also where I ll disagree, something being popular or making money doesnt make it right or correct or even good at times.
A way I would say it is if the system is enjoyful for a long time for the core crowd that enjoys rpgs in general, not the epeen crowd.
And we know that WoW clearly has attracted many people who are more interested in epeen contests, either way we ll have to see.
I believe and hope these new systems are going to keep many more casual rpg fans after the first month of shadowlands because thereâs so many fun and interesting things to do, while many tryhards will quit, the new players will be far more and will of course bring far more $$$
Clearly, based on Ionâs comments, NO.
Your wait of being optimal at everything is being removed from the game, unless you level and gear 4 of each through m+ giving only 1 piece of gear. Good luck with that :3
Stats are a cool part of an RPG, but itâs not exactly a core part. You can technically have RPGs without stats. Choose your own adventure books are technically an RPG. Itâs just an element which can be added. I agree money isnât always the best way to make choices, but really there is no other way to measure right/wrong here. Not if you are not willing to accept a developers right to change their mind without believing itâs pandering. Or do you think it was pandering when they decided to be Inclusive of more diverse types of people in the story? Because that wasnât the way they originally had it. It was added because people proved a point and they agreed.
I have to admit that made me LOL in real life!
I would rather they make raids drop more gear rather than making mythic+ drop no gear.