I agree. It’s why I’ve often suggested precisely what we have now with one minor alteration: Benthic gears equip effects only apply to the outside world.
If Benthic gear didn’t have all of it’s bonuses when you were in raids, then it wouldn’t even really be competitive. It would still be BiS for the over world in some cases, but that would evaporate once it’s equip effects were disabled in raids and dungeons.
It’s still high ilvl gear, though, so it would still serve you going into lower difficulty content to start acquiring the gear that would be ideal for the highest tiers of content.
Instead raiders currently have to farm benthic gear because it’s equip effects are so powerful that even at lower item levels they’re better than some heroic and mythic pieces. That doesn’t need to be the case though. It’s catch-up gear, and the basic stats alone are competitive enough to get you into raids to start earning the real gear.
Unfortunate that progression of the power type is a lie in wow. You’re only ever at the same bar as the most recent content patch. Who cares about all the old stuff? It was already faceroll. New stuff is where you should be focused, and you will never feel more powerful versus that stuff. It’s pretty constantly the same difficulty. At best, you feel minor improvements across a tier for that few months until they reset it again.
I’d prefer if they figured this out without stepping on the toes of the people who they have historically never stepped on before, though. In addition, if someone is going to desire something, I expect them to have the requisite skill to get it. I don’t mind solo content, but it better be MTC levels if you want it. EFFORT is meaningless. Skill derived from effort is the thing that makes all the difference in real life.
Down for all of this
Eh, like I said, I don’t care about time. I care about you topping out based on how good you are at the game, just like real life stuff. If gear is your trophy, you don’t get big trophies unless you win big competitions.
It’s really not, honestly. It’s not like it used to be, but going from 385 in Nazjatar to 410 in Nazjatar I definitely notice a difference, and it’s satisfying.
Which is pretty much the only way to keep a gear-centric progression system from stagnation. Give a set period where you can improve, and then provide a new challenge that needs to be overcome and you can begin improving over that as well.
Please note that I said “feels like”. In practice casuals have never been stepping on raiders toes. Only upset raiders who perceive that to be true. Catch up gear systems, and even the world quest system, do not devalue Mythic quality gear.
While Benthic gear is in a weird place with certain pieces, for certain classes, being competitive even with high end Heroic pieces, that’s more of a tuning issue than an intentional design philosophy.
I have no idea what MTC is, but:
It’s fine if you value skill instead of effort, that’s what Mythic Raiding is for, that’s what Mythic+ is for. As it turns out, a great many players value effort in addition to skill. They feel that putting time into something should necessarily give something back.
The real takeaway ought to be that both groups can coexist without interfering with each other. If I can get good gear for over world content, and you can get good gear for raiding content, does it matter?
The suggestion that solo players should only get (I assume, as I don’t understand MTC) bottom of the barrel gear? It’s just divisive. It’s a judgment on content that doesn’t even affect you.
That’s like going to childrens art competition and suggesting that if no one can produce high skill pieces like adults can they don’t deserve anything. They may not be in the same skill bracket, but that’s why they’re competing with each other and not adults.
Any time we see actual disagreement about this situation it’s when one person steps out of their lane to chastise another lane. The lanes don’t crossover in any meaningful way, we need to stop acting like it matters.
I’d really enjoy a system where over world gear was specific to the over world, and was particularly powerful there, but not in dungeons and raids. It should be strong enough to get into those dungeons and raids, but starting at the bottom.
(So, over world sets could be Heroic equivalent in the over world, but only equivalent to starting out in Normal in the actual raid, meaning you couldn’t just skip over difficulties.)
A great many people do not play video games to replicate a real world reward system. Most of us are getting away from the real world, and would like the reward scheme to be just a bit less tedious.
At least, at the lower levels of the system. Y’all can have as much tedium at the top as you’d like, it doesn’t have any impact on me. Just like whether or not I can get 425 gear over many weeks of world quest farming doesn’t actually affect raiders.
It might make them angry, but that’s just getting their knickers in a twist over nothing. My 425 gear isn’t Heroic or Mythic gear, and it has no bearing on their gear, and it doesn’t make their achievement less of an achievement.
The challenge should be about the challenge, not about the rewards anyway. Isn’t that what people are always saying? “You should play because it’s fun not because of what it gives you.”
It really is. If gear is making you kill things that you couldn’t kill before, you’re a bad player and gear is hard carrying you. Wow isn’t that hard. GitGud.
And there’s the rub as to why it doesn’t matter. Hard for me to care about something when I’m not actually going to achieve anything PERMANENTLY around it. My goals in life that are long running ones typically revolve around the idea of getting to a certain level and then finally giving the thing up once I get there. I completed skyrim. I complete tons of games. You cannot complete wow, so why do you care about gear, especially when gear isn’t doing anything meaningful for you?
They do devalue heroic gear. That’s the biggest group of people getting slighted by TF, benthic, etc. The upper middle class, just like real life. You’re either not rich enough to still differentiate yourself, or you’re not poor enough to collect on the wellfare systems. It’s garbage.
Literally every time blizz has used that shill line they have NEVER fixed the “just a tuning” issue.
Mage tower challenge
it’s not effort in addition to skill, you’re lying. What they want is effort rewarded INSTEAD of skill on some things and skill rewarded instead of effort on others, where both give the same rewards.
time doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter how many
Not if gear gets segmented like discussed. If it ends up that I have to do BOTH effort AND skill to get what I want, I’ll take huge issue (like I do now). Lets say it like this: If gear poofed and we were all swinging naked at bosses and I could get 99th percentiles, I fully expect that, after gear is reintroduced and whatever gearing systems exist to support that, I still get 99th percentiles after the fact for the SAME EFFORT I put in to get those 99th percentiles when I was naked (none, 0, no effort; the time I spent gathering the skill is all the time I need to pay). We’re going farther and farther from that, into more and more /played required and it’s obnoxious.
I’ve explained why it does actually affect me and my goals. Remove that and I’ll stop caring and crying about whatever overworld players get.
The issue is the game allows adults to compete in the childrens competitions and claim their participation trophies, which are just as good as the full sized adult trophies, and due to the nature that every trophy in the game can ALSO somehow randomly supersize to a WORLD CUP trophy, adults are encouraged to participate in every child’s competition they can. I don’t want to be participating in dumb kids comps. Don’t give me a reason to.
I just showed that they did.
Should never get to feel like you’re good at something or special when you’re not. Just my .02.
See, my mentality around that applies across the board to 100% of people (otherwise known as not being a hypocrite). The way you’re saying it right here, you’re expecting one group to use that as their motivation while still allowing another group to use the exact opposite.
Either or, mang. Do you expect everyone to play a game because it’s good or do you expect everyone to chase rewards? Game has never currently allowed for both, save the failed pvp template system (which failed because blizzard is incompetent and refuses to balance as often and as minorly as needed, not because the concept was bad).
I’m not killing stuff I couldn’t before. I’m killing it faster, which makes the experience more efficient. That’s still an improved power level, regardless of how you seem to want to define it.
This is a you problem. I’m happy to enjoy and care about transient rewards while they exist. Not everything has to mean something in the long run for it to be pleasant or fun.
Technically speaking, Blizzard can’t shill themselves. They’re just making statements. It’s players and such that can be shills.
The point remains that it’s still a tuning issue. Whether they do anything about it or not doesn’t change the statement. It just makes them look worse. This is still a them vs you issue, not a me vs you issue.
Getting mad at casuals, or casuals getting mad at raiders, is just stupid. It’s Blizzard who’s making a system that’s terrible, not the people who are using those systems.
God dangit, I should have seen that.
As an aside, that was easily the most fun thing I’ve done in game in ages. I literally hate most of the appearances I got for it, too. I just liked doing it.
Putting words in my mouth here. I didn’t say it was effort in addition to skill. I said, specifically, that they wanted to put time into something and get something back out. Nowhere in there do I mention they’re putting skill into it.
For good or ill people do want their efforts rewarded. Whether that’s a fair thing to ask for is, very obviously, a personal opinion.
I think it’s important to remember, however, that the majority of players have always been “casuals”. If the game doesn’t create a system for them to play around in, they’ll leave. It is the hubris only of the elite to believe that the game would survive without the masses.
It might not be a pleasant system for many raiders, but it’s one that needs to exist if the game is to have a constant flow of players. I agree that right now there’s too much overlap, but I don’t agree that we should be removing the systems that support the casual masses.
Just a quick note, but raiders are not the only ones who are experiencing this. Casual players have been experiencing this for quite a few expansions now, with gating and time played being more and more weighted.
Raiders are, however, only really recently starting to discover that pain. I won’t say that casuals have handled it any more gracefully at times, but we already know how much it sucks.
I’m going to do that thing:
Why, exactly, does it matter if it’s all going to get reset? You just said that you can’t care about stuff that’s going to get reset, but now you’re getting bent out of shape about something that won’t matter in a few months.
You’re 0.02 isn’t welcome here.
It’s not about feeling good at something or special. It’s just about feeling a sense of progression in terms of power level. We’re all painfully aware that we’re not as skilled as rated PvP players or Mythic raiders. They won’t stop informing us every time we get an upgrade.
Different groups of people behave differently; News at 11.
Most high end players say they do it for the challenge, and the gear is just to unlock the next challenge. It’s not, as they say, the reward itself.
Casual players, on the other hand, are doing content for gear. They’re not getting gear to unlock harder difficulties to test themselves against. They want gear because they want gear. They want it because it makes killing enemies faster, and that feels good to them.
I expect that some people play to challenge themselves, and some people play to chase rewards. The game absolutely supports both groups because they’re already playing the game.
This makes zero sense. You can both enjoy the game and strive to achieve something. Lol they’re not mutually exclusive.
I played the crap out of mop/wod because I enjoyed the content, could play multiple characters and still work towards getting excellent elite mogs and getting gear every week. I would get my gear and go play and alt and get more gear. Once they had gear I would go play bgs for fun. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
The issue right now is blizzards new design philosophy of making everyone do everything, whether they like it or not. A lot of pvers don’t like doing PvP yet for some essences they have to do it now? Pvpers having to do mythics if they want to get an adequate source of residium? Or op trinkets? Or warfronts (in past seasons) and islands. Don’t like the content? Well you better do them anyway if you want to be maxed out in the content you enjoy. It’s a super dumb design philosophy. They could easily have all this content, something for everyone to enjoy, and let people play it as they feel like instead of making them do 3 islands a week because it’s a new mechanic they have to justify putting money into.
Just let people play the stuff they enjoy. Not a hard concept.
It does seem like a lot of energy and effort gets put into raiding as the pinnacle of wow achievement and gameplay instead of considering that PvP has a lot more to provide in terms of “eSports competition.”
I don’t think there is a crusade against raiders… Problem with raiding is either you are in a guild that raids or don’t… Pugging raids is toxic you get toxic players or leaders so pugs tend to fail… Guilds you have to dedicate time so there is that factor. If i could dedicate 4-5 hours to raid i would but i dont have that time. Tried pugging before but 9/10 groups i pug fall apart cause of bad toxic people
oh that wasnt an Anti-LFR post by any means, i started raiding in LFR in late MOP, im a proponent of it and happy it exists. apologies if you took that as a remove LFR comment.
No it was showing that for some nerfing something isn’t ever enough they want more. Look at the azerite pieces look at current weapons they can’t Titan Forge but for some that’s not enough they want more.
I’m just using WOD LFR as an example it was heavily Nerfed but for some it wasn’t enough.
Although to be honest any change blizzard makes. positive or negative the community is going to find something wrong with it
wow’s balance in raiding is bad, but it’s 10x worse in pvp
Pvp is just that… direct pvp, while Raiding is competitive cooperation; Very few games fall into that category, which is why I personally find wow raiding so special.
eSports can do what normal sports televising should do: GDIAF
why should raiders get to raid log and forget every other aspect of the game? not to mention the gate keeping they do to try to keep casuals from getting nice things too. you should be rewarded for the things you do, yes, but the reason these things exist is specifically because blizz doesn’t WANT you to raid log. get your gear. then unsub to the next patch.
could not agree any more. as for your other statements, im sorry but i dont completely follow the point youre trying to make. are you referencing nerfing TF/WF/Socket from my original post? If so, my point is it reduces the value of anything that drops that doesnt have them. Maybe add valor back and all of a sudden we can counteract that beacuse you can choose to manually add +5 or +10 to an item and know its maxed out.
I don’t give a damn what bliz wants. That’s what I want to do. Also, if they do their job right, the entire raid won’t be in BIS until near the next xpac. It’s a good system, because it keeps them on the hook to finish the next content patch before too many people DO unsub. It’s great, because blizzard clearly needs that type of motivation to stick to schedules. Otherwise you get Warlords of Content Drought.
If I keep being forced to do all this stuff I hate, that’s going to actually make me unsub for good. I never did it in the past, because I always bought 6 month sub counts (and still do) but the people I know who did unsub till future patches once we finally downed the last boss in a raid tier would always come back for the next one. If I feel like I do right now, where I think they’re just trying to get me to stay subbed due to addiction and wish fulfillment denial, as opposed to constantly releasing more and more quality content (what I actually pay to play games for), then I’m quitting for good.
I don’t care if people worship me or not. That’s not what this is about. This is about my competition being ruined via garbage slot machines being added that reward things in excess of what has historically been BIS, necessitating me to do that stuff, which is far below my brow. I’m not going to work at mcdonalds as a minwage employee again. I’ve gone past that. Same thing with WQs. I did them once. Facerolled right through them. I’ve solo’d so many 4 mil hp enemies I can’t keep track. I’m done with that crap. It doesn’t make me a better player, it’s not engaging or challenging, and there is no competition behind it where I can at least look and say “well, at least I’m better than that guy!”
It offers me absolutely nothing from an enjoyment standpoint. Getting power from it doesn’t change that, it just turns it into the same reason I go to my job every day: because I want to get paid so I can do things I actually like. That isn’t a feeling I should ever feel in a game. I’m supposed to be doing this because it makes me happy and I genuinely find it fun.