I did read it. Could you please answer my question about how you imagine this would make Horde players feel?
Good? To see their faction doing something nice?
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And did you read my explanation about why it wouldn’t feel good? If you don’t believe it, why not?
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Ya, I pretty much stand firm, having the horde do anything to help the alliance will amount to nothing, because you havent conveyed a way where its a everyone wins situation.
Nameless NPCs show up to help the night elves and undead rebuild from opposing factions. Not a word precedes it or follows it. It just happens.
As it stands right now your solution does not make the horde player feel better nor will it satisfy the alliance players.
So right now, you’re asking to run people through the ringer, just because?
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To give the story some sort of a conclusion instead of “And Sylvanas ran away and the Alliance dropped it because Old God.”
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I don’t think you’re trying to have a serious conversation anymore. We’ve explained our losses over BFA to you already.
Sylvanas, Nathanos, Saurfang, Rastakhan, Undercity, our agency in our story, our morals, our heroism, our faction pride, and in some cases our love for this story.
Again, I understand Alliance frustration. Heck, later on that can be revisited if you want your payback so badly. That’s what Tyrande seems to be for. But for now, we’re done.
I’m sorry if you want us groveling for forgiveness, handing over our remaining leaders for execution or our zones for you to play in or our participation in rebuilding your cities instead of our own. We’re just done. The status quo has never looked so good to us.
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I think you’re just lacking empathy at this point. Neither side has had it good in bfa. Its also a very arguable case that the horde has had it much much worse.
But you’re just asking to make other players feel bad so you’ll feel good under the guise of ‘story conclusion’.
You’ve also not even attempted to re-butte any of my points nor offer any suggestions, on how your idea could be achieved. You just keep saying it should happen over and over and over.
And you said I was arguing in bath faith.
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The rank and file NPCs who are Sylvanas loyalists re being led through the streets in chains. Not counting the ones that the Champion’s already killed. The Horde as a whole was largely ignorant of Sylvanas’ plots, and manipulated by her reasoning. They even had their own city razed by her in what was revealed to be a selfish ploy on her part.
But this is all tangential to what we expect the game to do with the Horde champion/player.
But they didn’t just drop it. You honestly think Sylvanas isn’t going to be something the Alliance and the Horde end up having to deal with together?
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There are NPCs in Stormwind who talk about how their dream of going home died.
I’m talking to like four people, messages are coming in faster than I can respond to them, and I have to wait until someone else posts to respond a second time. It’s not so much “bad faith” as it is having my hands tied. But, off the top of my head, at the closure of the expansion we could revisit the warfronts as a sort of epilogue, see what’s happening there, and leave it at that.
I did and it’s ridiculous. The Horde did bad things. Being reminded that the Horde did bad things won’t kill the players, I’m not even asking for their participation. I just think some acknowledgement and reparations of the rest of the Horde’s hand in Sylvanas’ crimes is warranted.
Effectively blaming Sylvanas for all the things the Horde as complicit in. We already played this game in WoD and it sucked.
Unless they pledged loyalty to the Horde, and given some of the whispers that loyalists get, we KNOW some of them didn’t take it at all seriously.
And I’ve explained why the pale in comparison to genocide. 4 character losses and 2 deaths? One of whom was barely a Horde character? Please.
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Okay, then I’m done. It’s clear we’re not going to agree. Have a nice day.
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That’s fine. I mean, the Alliance had ARTHAS, of all people, thrown in their faces this expansion.
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Those NPCs have a dream of doing to Lordaeron what the Horde did to Teldrassil. They want to exterminate the Forsaken who live there and make a home over their corpses.
Lordaeron is not Alliance territory. There might be Lordaeronian refugees living in Stormwind but the bulk of that ancient kingdom are still living there just fine. Or were before it got blown up. By Sylvanas. Their own racial leader who turned traitor at the end of this expansion.
Forsaken fans have had it pretty bad in BfA.
Not conquering Lordaeron is not this huge blow to the Alliance playerbase. Losing their Hub city (and roleplay hub in Brill) is a huge blow to the Horde. You can’t paint it as an Alliance tragedy.
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Which should speak volumes to you.
The horde has been told were bad and should feel bad all along, not after the fact (BTW using arthas as an alliance bad thing is just weak to begin with). Yet, you wanna continue to make players who had no choice in the matter feel bad. Just so you can like NPCs again? Like what?
What you’re asking is ridiculous and throughout this entire thread you’ve made no compromises nor given a clear idea of what should happen, you can also take your time to respond to people, therefore giving rebuttals. No one is asking you to keep firing off half responses in under 2 minutes.
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Not just Sylvanas. Nathanos, Saurfang, and plenty of Horde NPCs that actually carried out the orders and/or remained loyal to her took the blame. And all the Horde bears the shame. And feels the loss of Undercity.
Well yeah, you can’t really magically tell who was and wasn’t a Sylvanas supporter. The only people you can punish are the ones who out themselves. Although I’m sure plenty of those “Loyalists” include people who made the pledge and were later found to still be supporters.
If the idea is that the game is to introduce a cutscene or in-game event where we chain up/punish every NPC who didn’t explicitly denounce/actively fight against Sylvanas in patch 8.0-8.2.5 simply because they happened to be in the Horde when she and her military force burned down Teldrassil, then I think that’s a very unrealistic expectation.
Asking for some sort of acknowledgement or reparation the rank-and-file Horde soldiers who were complicit in Sylvanas’ reign of terror is not ridiculous.
I don’t want Horde players to feel bad and I’m running out of ways to tell you that.
I disagree, but beyond that it was supposed to be some sort of retaliation for Teldrassil. It would have been weak but it would have been something. But that was ripped away from them too. Every chance the Alliance has had for catharsis has been thoroughly blocked.
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You havent offered a suggestion. You say you want X to happen but not Y. But offer no way how.
So, at face value you want X to happen but you’re also indirectly asking for Y to happen.
If you dont think the horde has been held accountable yet then I think you may need to go and replay the horde side.
I think you’re being kinda unreasonable at this point.
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I have so! You just either ignore or shut down every single one, because according to you, acknowledging it AT ALL is bad, so to you, there is no way to do it.
Oh my God. That’s not even close to what I’m suggesting at all and you know that. This is blatantly dishonest.
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I apologize for the mistake. I’m honestly trying to understand what- in practice you’re asking for.
Which NPCs need to get punished, how do we find out who those NPCs are, and how should they be punished? And how do we do this without Horde players losing access to zones and services? Well aside from returning Darkshore to the Night Elves, obviously.
I’m not asking for NPCs to get punished, I’m asking for some sort of acknowledgement and effort from the Horde to mend the broken trust, loss of life and homes, and pain they’ve caused the Alliance.
They could put Ziridormi in any zone that’s affected, just like with Warfronts, Tirisfal, Teldrassil, Darkshore, and Dustwallow.
And and if they do something like that, I’d be fine with, say, the Alliance pulling out of the Barrens. It doesn’t HAVE to be one-sided, I never said it did. This is an armistice, not an unconditional surrender for one side or the other.
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