Okay but the bad things were still done, and you seem to strongly believe that Horde characters were made to feel bad- so I think we can agree the point we’re at now would be a bizarre place to stop. Let’s finish the story so it can be put behind us… And yes, that includes making amends.
Oh my God.
I already like the players, I’m talking about the NPCs and the faction as it exists in-game
No, I’m saying that the Horde should make amends towards the Alliance. And that means player might participate, just like they did with the horrible stuff, because the other option is it all just being mentioned in a book outside of the game, and I don’t want to do that again. You seem to have a very difficult time divorcing the ideas, and I’m sorry about that.
Please, PLEASE stop putting words in my mouth, it’s very uncomfortable. At times it feels like you’re intentionally misconstruing what I’m saying.
Gonna be real, you are pretty strongly insinuating that (intentional or not), if you’re not then clear that up for us please!
TBH its prolly best to just handle it in an outside book, so no one has to deal with it in game, then the people who wanted something to happen can have it happen and say it happened, and others can just move on.
I think the problem you’re running into is one that many others have had on this debate.
Punish the Horde, you punish the players. It extremely hard to do one without the other. When the Horde undergoes penance in game it is likely the players will be forced to do so to progress.
It doesn’t feel good. We didn’t want this, we didn’t choose this. We were pulled down into the mud while tied to a rope and dragged the entire way. Aiding the Alliance to atone for things we didn’t want to do just feels like we’re being dragged another mile through the filth.
Then there’s the matter of reparations and all of that meaning we, as players, lose zones and territory that we may enjoy while gaining nothing in return. It feels bad and we feel we’ve suffered enough in BFA.
So then it doesn’t matter, just like all the other times something goes right for the Alliance in a book.
I really, truly do not believe that seeing Alliance recovery reflected in-game is a lot to ask. I really, really don’t.
Counter-point; for the Alliance it’s been like a root canal. We sat through the drilling, and the suffering, and the uncomfortable sensation of blood and particles of bone in our mouth, while the Dental Assistant looks unhappy about the whole thing. We were assured by the dentist though, that we were right for doing this.
And then, before the crown gets put in, the Dentist rips off his gloves and pushes you out of the chair. And then, when you ask if they’re going to finish up, the dental assistant starts complaining about how unfair it is. “No, that’s enough, I don’t want to do this anymore.”
Alliance recovery alone reflected in game is fine.
But, having the horde/its players aid in that recovery via quests via and any major story wise or gameplay wise, is not.
Im not saying that the alliance has had it easy in bfa, but neither has the horde, and your idea really only looks like it will make one side feel good, while continuing to make the other feel like trash.
So, sure if you wanna have some NPC orcs help the night elves get some lumbers and some NPC humans help cleanup UC, thats fine, but in no way shape or form should the player be obligated to help out nor have any major impacts on the story.
i don’t feel that’s apt. Your analogy only works if we were assigned to be the dentist by someone else and had no desire to be there in the first place.
We’ve been dreading this since the tree burned. We KNEW how screwed we were. We had no chance of being in the right or of winning the war. We lost our morality and agency at the starting line and have been squirming ever since. Heck, the war is over and we’re still dreading whats coming next! The Horde is in absolute shambles at the moment.
We’re just trying to explain to you that we’re tired. We’ve lost characters, our agency, our morals, our pride. We really don’t have much left to give here.
I would absolutely take that. I have nothing against Horde players, which I’ve said over and over again.
So you can certainly understand that the Alliance is frustrated. They lost (another) city, then, in their bid for vengeance, another important landmark of cultural significance for them was ripped away from them after being inches away from victory. Then, in their big “Tides of Vengeance” patch, we were locked into an eternal back-and-forth warfront and a raid where we killed one guy who wasn’t even sold on the Horde, and ran away.
And now, we’re being told “Yeah that’s all over, peace time!” with no resolution to all the terrible things that were done.
Which is dumb. No one’s arguing that. This entire story has been cheap shock play after play. The Alliance wants more, the Horde feels we’ve suffered enough.
So what is there to do? Really nothing. Split us up after this and don’t let the Alliance interact with the Horde for a while and vice versa. We’re sick of each other.
You all can plot revenge and do your thing over there, we can be over here picking up the pieces of what we had and trying to hotglue it back together.
We did. That’s why we had another rebellion with the whole “We don’t get to hide” message. Where we lost three characters in one fell swoop and apparently learned nothing from Garrosh.
We’re not dodging the blame because in our eyes we’ve paid in full. We need to rebuild ourselves before we help anybody.
The analogy falls apart because the Horde Champion isn’t analogous to the Dentist- assuming the root canal is supposed to be the Burning of Teldrassil.
Sylvanas made the order to burn Teldrassil and nameless NPCs carried it out. The Horde champion was just there- and ended up fighting against her. They still got the blame, though, and ended up losing Saurfang and Undercity (and surrounding areas) before eventually deposing her. Sylvanas was exposed to have been manipulating the Horde and is now their enemy. Saurufang is dead. Loyalists are being rooted out and paraded in the streets in chains. The Horde and Alliance are currently in peace negotiations which will likely include the return of Darkshore.
To use your analogy, the dentist has been fired, along with the dental assistant and several other staff. You’re waiting for your payout.
But you suffered so much pain that you want also want to get even with the receptionist, the janitor, and everyone else who happened to be in the office. They’re just as responsible. What kind of compensation would you ask of them?
Do you believe that Horde players will feel better after this hypothetical “making amends”?
If your answer is that you believe the Horde should lose its settlement in Ashenvale and gain nothing in return, then say so. And please also explain why Alliance players should have more questing zones than Horde players, because that would be the result.
So … you want the PCs to do penance so that you can like the NPCs again? I just want to be 100% clear on what you’re asking for here.
And at times it feels like you don’t realize I’m not just a bunch of pixels, but a human being sitting at my keyboard who pays the same subscription fee you do. Until and unless I get so fed up with all of this that I quit, of course.
No. Lordaeron was not an Alliance loss. You can’t claim that it is.
The Horde lost a major city the same as the Alliance. Now with hindsight we can’t even say that it was a Horde victory because Sylvanas was the one who ordered it and she isn’t Horde anymore. In fact we learned she had been playing us from the start and was never fighting for our betterment.
The Horde suffered just as much as the Alliance from BfA. We both lost a city. The Horde also lost multiple major characters. We lost Saurfang to death. We lost Sylvanas and Nathanos to betrayal. Now we’re expected to hunt down Sylvanas who is one of the last remaining leaders of the Horde from Classic.
Also, while he died last expansion, I’m still going to count Vol’jin as a death because he had to die for this entire narrative to happen in the first place.
The reason the Horde players in this thread are so resistant to your suggestions is because BfA has outright gutted us. We lost a huge chunk of our cast and are now being forced to hunt our own because they were turned into unrepentant villains. The Forsaken have been gutted so hard Blizzard is lining up some Alliance heroes to take them over one day.
Horde needs to rebuild just as much as the Alliance. I’d argue even more.
The Horde pointed their finger at the Warchief again and stood outside Orgrimmar. That the long and short of what they did.
Oh. My God. The Horde hasn’t paid anything except Saurfang and pride. What on earth are you talking about.
I’m saying I want the penance to be shown in-game. I don’t care who does it, if it’s just some NPCs that’s absolutely fine, and I’ve already said that but if players participate it might be a neat way of mending fences. This is exactly why I don’t think you’re reading what I’m saying, and you’re just pinning your own stuff to it.
Vellina, you’re straight up just not reading at this point.
But the the Horde as a whole didn’t order or execute the burning of Teldrassil, and the Horde champion actively works against other members of the Horde to take down Sylvanas.
Or in this instance, Dental Assistant was tricked into thinking you were just getting a check up, and after realizing what was happening, worked with you to take down the Dentist- after getting a root canal performed on them as well.
Yep. But the Horde continued to follow Sylvanas after committing Genocide until an Old God went on the loose. The rank-and-file NPCs didn’t care enough to do anything about it.
So it’s like the Dental Assistant didn’t quit and kept working on people with botched jobs.
The Horde pointed their finger at the Warchief again and stood outside Orgrimmar. That the long and short of what they did.
They also helped Saurfang escape her assassination attempts, helped Baine return Jaina’s brother to him (fighting fellow Horde in the process) and participated in an assault on Orgrimmar’s city gates.