There is no version of wow besides classic/tbc where it is harder to pick a class. Time commitment aside, the classes all feel so beautifully balanced in terms of what makes them each unique and attractive for players.
This is why I hate it when people ask for changes to classes in vanilla or ask for additional stuff like ‘more class quests’
In retail this mindset is in full force where if one class has something, then they all must have a version of it, take class order halls for example.
In vanilla there were so many niche things that each could do and when you knew you couldn’t do it you just thought “damn that’s so cool maybe I should roll a XX”
When I see a mage aoe farming, it makes me want to try the mage. When I see a hunter doing his bow quest, it makes me want to roll a hunter. When I see a rogue lockpick the gate in brd or open boxes for me, it makes me want to roll a rogue. When I see a priest mind control people off ledges... you get the point.
This feeling is long dead in retail because everyone can do everything and if one class does have a unique trait, that traits reward is GREATLY minimized so everyone can feel important.
This is really just food for thought I felt like typing down, no real statement besides we need to try to preserve this type of wow, and not ruin it with attempting to balance everyone around who is the better dpser/tank/healer
16 Likes
It's hard to get bored of the classes in vanilla, the game was made with a real rpg mindset.
1 Like
its pretty easy to pick actually. do you want to heal endgame? no? x-out half the classes.
do you want to tank? warrior
do you want to top dps meters? mage, rogue, warrior
do you want to be terrible? druid
etc etc etc
its just based on what you want to be or do(or not do)
classic is very limiting on what classes can do.
do you want to tank? warrior
do you want to top dps meters? mage, rogue, warrior
do you want to be terrible? druid
etc etc etc
its just based on what you want to be or do(or not do)
classic is very limiting on what classes can do.
10 Likes
I think some time between TBC and Wrath they had the best class arrangement.
Where we had hybrid tax for shaman, shadow priests etc, they provided buffs to other DPS more so than directly contributing. Where classes had unique buffs to bring and raid synergy was a meta-game in and of itself (though more shaman = more win was probably too far with Lust in mind).
1.12 did not go far enough in making prot pallies/feral(Tank) viable, not sure how ele/shadow/balance turned out as I do not have interest in playing casters.
Where we had hybrid tax for shaman, shadow priests etc, they provided buffs to other DPS more so than directly contributing. Where classes had unique buffs to bring and raid synergy was a meta-game in and of itself (though more shaman = more win was probably too far with Lust in mind).
1.12 did not go far enough in making prot pallies/feral(Tank) viable, not sure how ele/shadow/balance turned out as I do not have interest in playing casters.
5 Likes
10/28/2018 08:01 PMPosted by Vhokits pretty easy to pick actually. do you want to heal endgame? no? x-out half the classes.
do you want to tank? warrior
do you want to top dps meters? mage, rogue, warrior
do you want to be terrible? druid
etc etc etc
its just based on what you want to be or do(or not do)
classic is very limiting on what classes can do.
Sux to be in the raid with no tranq shot though...
Vanilla made all classes awesome. Every class had a niche. Every class meshed differently with other classes. It made the game more fun when you realized that more people = more fun.
I feel sorry for your raid. Must suck not having pally buffs (no 1337 deepz without salvation), druid mark and brez, warlock health stones and soul stones, and as mentioned earlier no hunter tranq shot in those raids. Not to mention the slow gearing unless you are terribly lucky.
Classes aren't very limited. Some classes just scale much better when you jump through hoops and spend gold like you mine it directly. Funny thing is is that it's unsustainable unless you only do those things for raiding.
10/28/2018 08:01 PMPosted by Vhokits pretty easy to pick actually. do you want to heal endgame? no? x-out half the classes.
do you want to tank? warrior
do you want to top dps meters? mage, rogue, warrior
do you want to be terrible? druid
etc etc etc
its just based on what you want to be or do(or not do)
classic is very limiting on what classes can do.
I feel sorry for your raid. Must suck not having pally buffs (no 1337 deepz without salvation), druid mark and brez, warlock health stones and soul stones, and as mentioned earlier no hunter tranq shot in those raids. Not to mention the slow gearing unless you are terribly lucky.
Classes aren't very limited. Some classes just scale much better when you jump through hoops and spend gold like you mine it directly. Funny thing is is that it's unsustainable unless you only do those things for raiding.
2 Likes
10/28/2018 08:03 PMPosted by BlackstannisI think some time between TBC and Wrath they had the best class arrangement.
Where we had hybrid tax for shaman, shadow priests etc, they provided buffs to other DPS more so than directly contributing. Where classes had unique buffs to bring and raid synergy was a meta-game in and of itself (though more shaman = more win was probably too far with Lust in mind).
1.12 did not go far enough in making prot pallies/feral(Tank) viable, not sure how ele/shadow/balance turned out as I do not have interest in playing casters.
So basically burning crusade. Wrath removed the hybrid tax and began gross homogenization. Everyone started getting heals and aoe. Buffs no longer stacked blessing of might was the same thing as battle shout instead of both stacking
2 Likes
its pretty easy to pick actually. do you want to heal endgame?
Stopped reading there because whatever you have to say next is worthless. I have played every aspect of this game and love it all, I do not give a flying !@#$ about what I do endgame. I’ll choose the funnest class I can think of and that will be that.
Keep this mindset in retail if you want to have fun, or don’t idc
4 Likes
Too bad the leveling process completely turns me off from the mere idea of experimenting with another said class.
In retail when I also say "damn I want to roll that class." I actually do, and enjoy the benefits of playing the said class.
Sorry to be a buzzkill.
In retail when I also say "damn I want to roll that class." I actually do, and enjoy the benefits of playing the said class.
Sorry to be a buzzkill.
10/28/2018 08:06 PMPosted by Nichoits pretty easy to pick actually. do you want to heal endgame?
Stopped reading there because whatever you have to say next is worthless. I have played every aspect of this game and love it all, I do not give a flying !@#$ about what I do endgame. I’ll choose the funnest class I can think of and that will be that.
Keep this mindset in retail if you want to have fun, or don’t idc
sorry i'm not a dirty casual pleb like you who doesn't raid.
4 Likes
10/28/2018 08:06 PMPosted by Nicho...
Stopped reading there because whatever you have to say next is worthless. I have played every aspect of this game and love it all, I do not give a flying !@#$ about what I do endgame. I’ll choose the funnest class I can think of and that will be that.
Keep this mindset in retail if you want to have fun, or don’t idc
sorry i'm not a dirty casual pleb like you who doesn't raid.
Vanilla was about so much more then raiding. Sorry you're a jerk who doesn't know that.
4 Likes
...
sorry i'm not a dirty casual pleb like you who doesn't raid.
Vanilla was about so much more then raiding. Sorry you're a jerk who doesn't know that.
Agreed. I hate the "World of Raidcraft" mindset that came to dominate the game, where literally the only consideration is min/maxing for end-game raids.
And the attitude is so pointless. Regardless of who brags about being an elite raider vs a casual, the reality is 99.999% of us won't be in the world first race, so obsessive min-maxing for progression raiding won't matter much.
2 Likes
10/28/2018 08:05 PMPosted by ZeliekVanilla made all classes awesome. Every class had a niche. Every class meshed differently with other classes. It made the game more fun when you realized that more people = more fun.10/28/2018 08:01 PMPosted by Vhokits pretty easy to pick actually. do you want to heal endgame? no? x-out half the classes.
do you want to tank? warrior
do you want to top dps meters? mage, rogue, warrior
do you want to be terrible? druid
etc etc etc
its just based on what you want to be or do(or not do)
classic is very limiting on what classes can do.
I feel sorry for your raid. Must suck not having pally buffs (no 1337 deepz without salvation), druid mark and brez, warlock health stones and soul stones, and as mentioned earlier no hunter tranq shot in those raids. Not to mention the slow gearing unless you are terribly lucky.
Classes aren't very limited. Some classes just scale much better when you jump through hoops and spend gold like you mine it directly. Funny thing is is that it's unsustainable unless you only do those things for raiding.
huh? when did i say there was no druids or paladins etc? they are just healers. because their other specs do nothing for a raid
4 Likes
Considering every enrage timer in classic wow could be beat with nothing but hybrids dpsing it won't hurt anything to have a few hybrid dps in the raid.10/28/2018 08:47 PMPosted by Vhok10/28/2018 08:05 PMPosted by ZeliekVanilla made all classes awesome. Every class had a niche. Every class meshed differently with other classes. It made the game more fun when you realized that more people = more fun.
...
I feel sorry for your raid. Must suck not having pally buffs (no 1337 deepz without salvation), druid mark and brez, warlock health stones and soul stones, and as mentioned earlier no hunter tranq shot in those raids. Not to mention the slow gearing unless you are terribly lucky.
Classes aren't very limited. Some classes just scale much better when you jump through hoops and spend gold like you mine it directly. Funny thing is is that it's unsustainable unless you only do those things for raiding.
huh? when did i say there was no druids or paladins etc? they are just healers. because their other specs do nothing for a raid
10/28/2018 07:31 PMPosted by NichoThere is no version of wow besides classic/tbc where it is harder to pick a class. Time commitment aside, the classes all feel so beautifully balanced in terms of what makes them each unique and attractive for players.
This is why I hate it when people ask for changes to classes in vanilla or ask for additional stuff like ‘more class quests’
In retail this mindset is in full force where if one class has something, then they all must have a version of it, take class order halls for example.
In vanilla there were so many niche things that each could do and when you knew you couldn’t do it you just thought “damn that’s so cool maybe I should roll a XX”
When I see a mage aoe farming, it makes me want to try the mage. When I see a hunter doing his bow quest, it makes me want to roll a hunter. When I see a rogue lockpick the gate in brd or open boxes for me, it makes me want to roll a rogue. When I see a priest mind control people off ledges... you get the point.
This feeling is long dead in retail because everyone can do everything and if one class does have a unique trait, that traits reward is GREATLY minimized so everyone can feel important.
This is really just food for thought I felt like typing down, no real statement besides we need to try to preserve this type of wow, and not ruin it with attempting to balance everyone around who is the better dpser/tank/healer
When you saw a Paladin or Shaman holding a 2 hander, sitting in town alone and bored while everyone who didn't suck was out raiding... Did it make you want to play either of those classes?
4 Likes
10/28/2018 09:10 PMPosted by Åpocalypse10/28/2018 07:31 PMPosted by NichoThere is no version of wow besides classic/tbc where it is harder to pick a class. Time commitment aside, the classes all feel so beautifully balanced in terms of what makes them each unique and attractive for players.
This is why I hate it when people ask for changes to classes in vanilla or ask for additional stuff like ‘more class quests’
In retail this mindset is in full force where if one class has something, then they all must have a version of it, take class order halls for example.
In vanilla there were so many niche things that each could do and when you knew you couldn’t do it you just thought “damn that’s so cool maybe I should roll a XX”
When I see a mage aoe farming, it makes me want to try the mage. When I see a hunter doing his bow quest, it makes me want to roll a hunter. When I see a rogue lockpick the gate in brd or open boxes for me, it makes me want to roll a rogue. When I see a priest mind control people off ledges... you get the point.
This feeling is long dead in retail because everyone can do everything and if one class does have a unique trait, that traits reward is GREATLY minimized so everyone can feel important.
This is really just food for thought I felt like typing down, no real statement besides we need to try to preserve this type of wow, and not ruin it with attempting to balance everyone around who is the better dpser/tank/healer
When you saw a Paladin or Shaman holding a 2 hander, sitting in town alone and bored while everyone who didn't suck was out raiding... Did it make you want to play either of those classes?
Here's the thing. I knew plenty of paladins who raided as ret. Difference was, they didn't play retribution paladin. They played a paladin.
I can't remember how many times a quick cleanse, heal, bop, or loh from one of the rets saved my guild mates from an untimely death.
I also know many rets who washed out of our guild because they tunneled the meters, didn't pay attention, and in general just didn't play well.
If you're goal was to do as much damage as possible you probably aren't going to succeed as ret. If you play the defensive support warrior designed to outlast his enemies and buff your enemies, you probably will.
This was true of every class in my guild. We had tons of rogues and warriors wash out, not because there damage was bad (some did really dang good), but because they died to stupid.
I have no sympathy for stupid.
10/28/2018 09:16 PMPosted by Matcauthon10/28/2018 09:10 PMPosted by Åpocalypse...
When you saw a Paladin or Shaman holding a 2 hander, sitting in town alone and bored while everyone who didn't suck was out raiding... Did it make you want to play either of those classes?
Here's the thing. I knew plenty of paladins who raided as ret. Difference was, they didn't play retribution paladin. They played a paladin.
I can't remember how many times a quick cleanse, heal, bop, or loh from one of the rets saved my guild mates from an untimely death.
I also know many rets who washed out of our guild because they tunneled the meters, didn't pay attention, and in general just didn't play well.
If you're goal was to do as much damage as possible you probably aren't going to succeed as ret. If you play the defensive support warrior designed to outlast his enemies and buff your enemies, you probably will
So if you are willing to be a terrible, sub par, waste of a raid spot and waste of raid loot that everyone else in your raid has to work harder to carry... Got it.
Even the guy who actually designed the classes admitted the OG vanilla design for hybrids was a total failure. And that was just paladins... The shaman cm meanwhile got death threats over how angry the shaman community was over their design failures.
Meanwhile population numbers on pservers constantly shift away from hybrids and towards warriors /mages /rogues but I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
2 Likes
10/28/2018 09:29 PMPosted by Åpocalypse<span class="truncated">...</span>
Here's the thing. I knew plenty of paladins who raided as ret. Difference was, they didn't play retribution paladin. They played a paladin.
I can't remember how many times a quick cleanse, heal, bop, or loh from one of the rets saved my guild mates from an untimely death.
I also know many rets who washed out of our guild because they tunneled the meters, didn't pay attention, and in general just didn't play well.
If you're goal was to do as much damage as possible you probably aren't going to succeed as ret. If you play the defensive support warrior designed to outlast his enemies and buff your enemies, you probably will
So if you are willing to be a terrible, sub par, waste of a raid spot and waste of raid loot that everyone else in your raid has to work harder to carry... Got it.
Even the guy who actually designed the classes admitted the OG vanilla design for hybrids was a total failure. And that was just paladins... The shaman cm meanwhile got death threats over how angry the shaman community was over their design failures.
Meanwhile population numbers on pservers constantly shift away from hybrids and towards warriors /mages /rogues but I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
You act as if the enrage timers in vanilla were hard.
Funny that you bring up pserver numbers because lights hope has rogues as 13% of the population. Mages were 14%. When you consider that there is 8 classes (per faction)that seems balanced. The outliars were warriors (24%), priests (9%), and druids (6.5%).
Shamans + paladins 11.7%
And I'd be willing to bet a good chunk of those warriors were bank alts.
So I guess the real issue is just warriors there. Not rogues or mages.
But go ahead apoc. Tell me how you would balance hybrids without breaking them elsewhere.
I also love how you guys who want to buff hybrids never bring up the underperforming pure specs.
Actually, I remember the Classic cast where they interviewed the guy. And he actually stated that one of the positives was that, unless you were in a world-first progression guild, you could do every raid with less than optimal slots filled in. The entire point was to have classes where they could contribute in ways outside of meter topping (hunter tranq shot for example).10/28/2018 09:29 PMPosted by ÅpocalypseSo if you are willing to be a terrible, sub par, waste of a raid spot and waste of raid loot that everyone else in your raid has to work harder to carry... Got it.
Even the guy who actually designed the classes admitted the OG vanilla design for hybrids was a total failure. And that was just paladins... The shaman cm meanwhile got death threats over how angry the shaman community was over their design failures.
Meanwhile population numbers on pservers constantly shift away from hybrids and towards warriors /mages /rogues but I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
This whole idea of "must be optimal in role that you fill (be it DPS/Healer/Tank)" led to the whole homogenization that is currently plagueing retail. BoK was nice to have. Windfury was nice to have. Battlerez was nice to have. The idea that meters were the be all, end all is what got us to where we are today.
So yes, I'd rather take a druid than a frothing at the mouth guy who does nothing but compare meters and talks about entire classes as "terrible, sub par, waste of a raid spot".
8 Likes
10/28/2018 09:39 PMPosted by LôrdgrimActually, I remember the Classic cast where they interviewed the guy. And he actually stated that one of the positives was that, unless you were in a world-first progression guild, you could do every raid with less than optimal slots filled in. The entire point was to have classes where they could contribute in ways outside of meter topping (hunter tranq shot for example).10/28/2018 09:29 PMPosted by ÅpocalypseSo if you are willing to be a terrible, sub par, waste of a raid spot and waste of raid loot that everyone else in your raid has to work harder to carry... Got it.
Even the guy who actually designed the classes admitted the OG vanilla design for hybrids was a total failure. And that was just paladins... The shaman cm meanwhile got death threats over how angry the shaman community was over their design failures.
Meanwhile population numbers on pservers constantly shift away from hybrids and towards warriors /mages /rogues but I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
This whole idea of "must be optimal in role that you fill (be it DPS/Healer/Tank)" led to the whole homogenization that is currently plagueing retail. BoK was nice to have. Windfury was nice to have. Battlerez was nice to have. The idea that meters were the be all, end all is what got us to where we are today.
So yes, I'd rather take a druid than a frothing at the mouth guy who does nothing but compare meters and talks about entire classes as "terrible, sub par, waste of a raid spot".
Exactly this.
1 Like