The beauty of vanilla classes.

10/28/2018 08:05 PMPosted by Matcauthon
10/28/2018 08:03 PMPosted by Blackstannis
I think some time between TBC and Wrath they had the best class arrangement.

Where we had hybrid tax for shaman, shadow priests etc, they provided buffs to other DPS more so than directly contributing. Where classes had unique buffs to bring and raid synergy was a meta-game in and of itself (though more shaman = more win was probably too far with Lust in mind).

1.12 did not go far enough in making prot pallies/feral(Tank) viable, not sure how ele/shadow/balance turned out as I do not have interest in playing casters.


So basically burning crusade. Wrath removed the hybrid tax and began gross homogenization. Everyone started getting heals and aoe. Buffs no longer stacked blessing of might was the same thing as battle shout instead of both stacking


I don't think either wrath or TBC was perfect but both were in a really good place. I think TBC had it better by focusing more on group/raid throughput than individual throughput but wrath was a very accessible xpac overall and I think the height of wows success.

I quit several times throughout tbc and never caught back up to do sunwell but I did get hand of adal and killed Kael'thas when it was required for BT attunement. I also quit several times in wrath and managed to do meta achieve in ICC, so swings and roundabouts really. I think both xpacs had merit.
2 Likes
...

So if you are willing to be a terrible, sub par, waste of a raid spot and waste of raid loot that everyone else in your raid has to work harder to carry... Got it.

Even the guy who actually designed the classes admitted the OG vanilla design for hybrids was a total failure. And that was just paladins... The shaman cm meanwhile got death threats over how angry the shaman community was over their design failures.

Meanwhile population numbers on pservers constantly shift away from hybrids and towards warriors /mages /rogues but I'm sure that's just a coincidence.


You act as if the enrage timers in vanilla were hard.

Funny that you bring up pserver numbers because lights hope has rogues as 13% of the population. Mages were 14%. When you consider that there is 8 classes (per faction)that seems balanced. The outliars were warriors (24%), priests (9%), and druids (6.5%).
Shamans + paladins 11.7%
And I'd be willing to bet a good chunk of those warriors were bank alts.
So I guess the real issue is just warriors there. Not rogues or mages.
But go ahead apoc. Tell me how you would balance hybrids without breaking them elsewhere.
I also love how you guys who want to buff hybrids never bring up the underperforming pure specs.

looking right at the stats now mages are around 20 then warriors then rogues followed by the rest down to 5% for the lowest
2 Likes
10/28/2018 10:18 PMPosted by Vhok
...

You act as if the enrage timers in vanilla were hard.

Funny that you bring up pserver numbers because lights hope has rogues as 13% of the population. Mages were 14%. When you consider that there is 8 classes (per faction)that seems balanced. The outliars were warriors (24%), priests (9%), and druids (6.5%).
Shamans + paladins 11.7%
And I'd be willing to bet a good chunk of those warriors were bank alts.
So I guess the real issue is just warriors there. Not rogues or mages.
But go ahead apoc. Tell me how you would balance hybrids without breaking them elsewhere.
I also love how you guys who want to buff hybrids never bring up the underperforming pure specs.

looking right at the stats now mages are around 20 then warriors then rogues followed by the rest down to 5% for the lowest

That's actually online at this time. Now tell me. What would you do to better balance classes in vanilla? Go ahead
10/28/2018 09:16 PMPosted by Matcauthon
Here's the thing. I knew plenty of paladins who raided as ret. Difference was, they didn't play retribution paladin. They played a paladin.

I can't remember how many times a quick cleanse, heal, bop, or loh from one of the rets saved my guild mates from an untimely death.

I also know many rets who washed out of our guild because they tunneled the meters, didn't pay attention, and in general just didn't play well.


No one has ever said it's about tunneling the meters, and you and the rest of the purist trash need to get that through your damn heads already and stop parroting that nonsense.

Damage + Utility = overall value

Hybrid DPS have poor overall value... It's NOT all about damage, and you look like a moron by trying to insist that it is.

10/28/2018 09:39 PMPosted by Lôrdgrim
So yes, I'd rather take a druid than a frothing at the mouth guy who does nothing but compare meters and talks about entire classes as "terrible, sub par, waste of a raid spot".


And you would be mathematically wrong for doing taking them, and even more mathematically wrong for wasting gear on them. That isn't debatable, it's basic facts.... As for frothing at the mouth? Yeah, I get a bit upset when purist trash actively try and sabotage Classic by doubling down on the exact same bugs/mistakes that vanilla had, rather than working to address the actual problems/issues with certain specs, and get them working at a level where they don't get laughed at for wanting to play the same damn game everyone else is playing.

10/28/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Matcauthon
Tell me how you would balance hybrids without breaking them elsewhere.


I've already done so in a half dozen or more threads in the past few months.... Rets, Enhancement, and Elemental are all fairly easy to fix... and in ways that wouldn't break PvP.

Boomkin I admittedly don't know well enough to comment, nor Feral, beyond a baseline of nerfing Manual Crowd Pummeler and Wolf'shead Helm (as those two items make feral impossible to balance... as if feral ended up viable without them it would be overpowered with them)

For hybrids that leaves Shadow (which greatly depends on whether the debuff limit is altered or not... if debuff limit was removed Shadow would be very easy to balance... if no debuff limit changes are done, then shadow is a very tricky one to deal with).. And it also leaves Protadin which is another stupidly easy spec to fix. I've covered all of those in other threads (save boomy/feral) but if you really want to be a stubborn little tool I can once again type out how to fix them here...

As for Pures.... Lets see...

Rogue already has 4 viable dps specs... Seal Fate daggers, Combat sword/mace/fist, Combat Daggers, and Deep Sub (which is the weakest of the 4 but has actual utility in the hemo debuff)

Warlock already has viable Affliction and Demo based builds (though this is admittedly arguable as both builds are arguably Ruin-Destro based with deep into demo or aff for a passive modifier)... In any case, Fire Destro is the only one "missing" here, and the solution there is to simply make Searing pain only cause bonus threat with a specific warlock curse active by the lock casting searing pain (say doom or agony).... Now locks can spam searing pain as a fire spell filler for deep destruction, but still keep the threat utility of searing pain for bosses like Twin Emps where a lock typically has to be the magic tank.... Beyond that, Locks would need (like shadow) a change to the debuff limit to really get anything more.

For Mages...
Fire and Frost are already viable... and I think the elemental build also worked in PvE (though that might have been PVP only)....I would try and make Fire mage ignite specific to each mage, but it depends on how the debuff limit works. Arcane is the one that needs love, but I don't have enough mage experience to comment on changing that.

Warriors..(for some reason counted as a pure despite being a hybrid)
Rage normalization is the #1 issue for them.... Feedback loop scaling is broken as hell... and the rage system working like that is a main factor in warrior leveling sucking hard. Normalize rage and warrior leveling sucks a whole lot less, and super geared warriors stop scaling like crazy at end game... Win/Win.
Beyond that, Arms is the spec that needs the most work, but also the most problematic to change... Again here the debuff limit is a major concern.... Testing after rage normalization and allowing the usage of Mortal strike would be needed to see how much Arms is behind Fury, and/or if there aren't other ways to provide the overall value they'd need for PvE, without doing something nuts for what was already the strongest group PvP class in the game.

That leaves, hunters? I didn't play vanilla hunter, and couldn't tell you a single thing about them... The primary factor I can speak of for hunters (and this would also help with hybrids in general and keeping warriors more in line) is simply reverting the late vanilla threat/taunt changes that essentially uncapped threat generation.... Keep those things locked into a Naxx-Exclusive zone wide buff if they really need to be kept at all.... but Hunters being able to feign and drop aggro was their primary utility... and one that rendered worthless when threat capping started becoming impossible.
3 Likes
10/28/2018 11:03 PMPosted by Åpocalypse
10/28/2018 09:16 PMPosted by Matcauthon
Here's the thing. I knew plenty of paladins who raided as ret. Difference was, they didn't play retribution paladin. They played a paladin.

I can't remember how many times a quick cleanse, heal, bop, or loh from one of the rets saved my guild mates from an untimely death.

I also know many rets who washed out of our guild because they tunneled the meters, didn't pay attention, and in general just didn't play well.


No one has ever said it's about tunneling the meters, and you and the rest of the purist trash need to get that through your damn heads already and stop parroting that nonsense.

Damage + Utility = overall value

Hybrid DPS have poor overall value... It's NOT all about damage, and you look like a moron by trying to insist that it is.

10/28/2018 09:39 PMPosted by Lôrdgrim
So yes, I'd rather take a druid than a frothing at the mouth guy who does nothing but compare meters and talks about entire classes as "terrible, sub par, waste of a raid spot".


And you would be mathematically wrong for doing taking them, and even more mathematically wrong for wasting gear on them. That isn't debatable, it's basic facts.... As for frothing at the mouth? Yeah, I get a bit upset when purist trash actively try and sabotage Classic by doubling down on the exact same bugs/mistakes that vanilla had, rather than working to address the actual problems/issues with certain specs, and get them working at a level where they don't get laughed at for wanting to play the same damn game everyone else is playing.

10/28/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Matcauthon
Tell me how you would balance hybrids without breaking them elsewhere.


I've already done so in a half dozen or more threads in the past few months.... Rets, Enhancement, and Elemental are all fairly easy to fix... and in ways that wouldn't break PvP.

Boomkin I admittedly don't know well enough to comment, nor Feral, beyond a baseline of nerfing Manual Crowd Pummeler and Wolf'shead Helm (as those two items make feral impossible to balance... as if feral ended up viable without them it would be overpowered with them)

For hybrids that leaves Shadow (which greatly depends on whether the debuff limit is altered or not... if debuff limit was removed Shadow would be very easy to balance... if no debuff limit changes are done, then shadow is a very tricky one to deal with).. And it also leaves Protadin which is another stupidly easy spec to fix. I've covered all of those in other threads (save boomy/feral) but if you really want to be a stubborn little tool I can once again type out how to fix them here...

As for Pures.... Lets see...

Rogue already has 4 viable dps specs... Seal Fate daggers, Combat sword/mace/fist, Combat Daggers, and Deep Sub (which is the weakest of the 4 but has actual utility in the hemo debuff)

Warlock already has viable Affliction and Demo based builds (though this is admittedly arguable as both builds are arguably Ruin-Destro based with deep into demo or aff for a passive modifier)... In any case, Fire Destro is the only one "missing" here, and the solution there is to simply make Searing pain only cause bonus threat with a specific warlock curse active by the lock casting searing pain (say doom or agony).... Now locks can spam searing pain as a fire spell filler for deep destruction, but still keep the threat utility of searing pain for bosses like Twin Emps where a lock typically has to be the magic tank.... Beyond that, Locks would need (like shadow) a change to the debuff limit to really get anything more.

For Mages...
Fire and Frost are already viable... and I think the elemental build also worked in PvE (though that might have been PVP only)....I would try and make Fire mage ignite specific to each mage, but it depends on how the debuff limit works. Arcane is the one that needs love, but I don't have enough mage experience to comment on changing that.

Warriors..(for some reason counted as a pure despite being a hybrid)
Rage normalization is the #1 issue for them.... Feedback loop scaling is broken as hell... and the rage system working like that is a main factor in warrior leveling sucking hard. Normalize rage and warrior leveling sucks a whole lot less, and super geared warriors stop scaling like crazy at end game... Win/Win.
Beyond that, Arms is the spec that needs the most work, but also the most problematic to change... Again here the debuff limit is a major concern.... Testing after rage normalization and allowing the usage of Mortal strike would be needed to see how much Arms is behind Fury, and/or if there aren't other ways to provide the overall value they'd need for PvE, without doing something nuts for what was already the strongest group PvP class in the game.

That leaves, hunters? I didn't play vanilla hunter, and couldn't tell you a single thing about them... The primary factor I can speak of for hunters (and this would also help with hybrids in general and keeping warriors more in line) is simply reverting the late vanilla threat/taunt changes that essentially uncapped threat generation.... Keep those things locked into a Naxx-Exclusive zone wide buff if they really need to be kept at all.... but Hunters being able to feign and drop aggro was their primary utility... and one that rendered worthless when threat capping started becoming impossible.


Lol at all this. You say viable and then you spew about how hybrids aren't viable. An entire team of hybrid dps can beat the enrage timers in vanilla. Sounds perfectly viable to me.

Especially based on what you're counting as viable for rogue builds.
And the fact that you right off affliction because of ruin based builds is hilarious.

I mean crap based on your standards...

You were even the one who told me that NO ONE wanted hybrids doing pure level dps and that can be proven wrong by just pointing at ziryus.

As for your changes where they basically get mana regen mechanics, it's great in theory but makes them beast mode at leveling and dungeons.
1 Like
10/28/2018 08:12 PMPosted by Vhok
sorry i'm not a dirty casual pleb like you who doesn't raid.
Ah... you're from the "I'm responsible for the destruction of WoW because we convinced Blizzard that the game was all about raiding" crowd. Well, gratefully, Classic will accommodate all kinds of players, even self-centered, egotistical jerks (not pointing any fingers, but I'm clearly talking to you). Although, truth be told, if I had my way, I'd ensure that no one with your attitude would be allowed to play anything but the abomination that is current WoW. Not, mind you, because I hold a grudge. It's just exactly the game you deserve. And, frankly, the one you wanted.
1 Like
sorry i'm not a dirty casual pleb like you who doesn't raid.
Ah... you're from the "I'm responsible for the destruction of WoW because we convinced Blizzard that the game was all about raiding" crowd. Well, gratefully, Classic will accommodate all kinds of players, even self-centered, egotistical jerks (not pointing any fingers, but I'm clearly talking to you). Although, truth be told, if I had my way, I'd ensure that no one with your attitude would be allowed to play anything but the abomination that is current WoW. Not, mind you, because I hold a grudge. It's just exactly the game you deserve. And, frankly, the one you wanted.


Honestly I don't think it was the raiding only matters crowd that did the most damage to wow.

It was the ones asking for balance changes that lead to homogenization that killed it
10/28/2018 10:56 PMPosted by Matcauthon
Now tell me. What would you do to better balance classes in vanilla? Go ahead
<popping some popcorn> This will be entertaining...
10/28/2018 11:31 PMPosted by Shadeseeker
10/28/2018 10:56 PMPosted by Matcauthon
Now tell me. What would you do to better balance classes in vanilla? Go ahead
<popping some popcorn> This will be entertaining...


Basically apocs idea is to give classes a mana regen mechanic. Enhancement stormstrikes and gets a buff that gives him mana regen.

Thing is this also enhances the leveling speed and how strong they are in dungeons.

The leveling speed is a relatively minor issue in the grand scheme of things but further leaves rogues and warriors behind the leveling curve which was basically.

Warlocks/hunters/mages (pet tanks and food/water = low down time. Mages can also aoe grind.)

Shamans Paladins priests and druids (heals and a variety of utility make leveling faster)

Rogues and warriors. Rogues have minimal mobility, both have to face tank and neither has heals.
10/28/2018 11:30 PMPosted by Matcauthon
Honestly I don't think it was the raiding only matters crowd that did the most damage to wow.

It was the ones asking for balance changes that lead to homogenization that killed it
Could be. I was really just more interested in calling out a jerk.
10/28/2018 11:27 PMPosted by Shadeseeker
10/28/2018 08:12 PMPosted by Vhok
sorry i'm not a dirty casual pleb like you who doesn't raid.
Ah... you're from the "I'm responsible for the destruction of WoW because we convinced Blizzard that the game was all about raiding" crowd. Well, gratefully, Classic will accommodate all kinds of players, even self-centered, egotistical jerks (not pointing any fingers, but I'm clearly talking to you). Although, truth be told, if I had my way, I'd ensure that no one with your attitude would be allowed to play anything but the abomination that is current WoW. Not, mind you, because I hold a grudge. It's just exactly the game you deserve. And, frankly, the one you wanted.


Man, both BfA *and* Classic would be better off without players like him.
Don't worry folks, once people realize how challenging it can sometimes be to field 40 people to a raid on a consistent basis, hybrids rejoice!!

People want to sit here and crunch this number and crunch that number, and say how non viable/optimal hybrid specs are such as Shadow Priest, Ret Paladin, Enhancement Shaman, etc etc.

Well the reality of Vanilla raiding was yes you had to have the majority of your raid in their "optimal" specs, but a lot of time there was room just to have the bodies to fill the raid; e.g. bring that Feral Druid, bring that Ret Paladin, bring that Shadow Priest.

I can remember countless times we raided with less than 40 people, while still clearing entire raids, and while still being in the progression phase.

So yes, while hybrids will not be particularly sought after, people are going to realize once again that getting 40 people together every single raid night is not going to be very easy and those spots would rather be filled than not no matter the spec.
10/28/2018 11:50 PMPosted by Hightimes
Don't worry folks, once people realize how challenging it can sometimes be to field 40 people to a raid on a consistent basis, hybrids rejoice!!

People want to sit here and crunch this number and crunch that number, and say how non viable/optimal hybrid specs are such as Shadow Priest, Ret Paladin, Enhancement Shaman, etc etc.

Well the reality of Vanilla raiding was yes you had to have the majority of your raid in their "optimal" specs, but a lot of time there was room just to have the bodies to fill the raid; e.g. bring that Feral Druid, bring that Ret Paladin, bring that Shadow Priest.

I can remember countless times we raided with less than 40 people, while still clearing entire raids, and while still being in the progression phase.

So yes, while hybrids will not be particularly sought after, people are going to realize once again that getting 40 people together every single raid night is not going to be very easy and those spots would rather be filled than not no matter the spec.


I had no issues with raiding with the so called suboptimal specs. What I did have issue with is raiding with idiots.
10/28/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Matcauthon
As for your changes where they basically get mana regen mechanics, it's great in theory but makes them beast mode at leveling and dungeons.
Leveling content doesn't matter, troll... If it did, warlocks and hunters would have been nerfed into the ground and warriors would have to get even more buffs... Try being slightly less than completely stupid in your future replies.

10/28/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Matcauthon
Especially based on what you're counting as viable for rogue builds
How so, exactly? The two combat builds (Sword/Fist/Mace and daggers) are the top two builds until late game scaling lets Seal Fate compete.... Basic itemization also incentivizes dagger builds early since Perditions has an AQ40 tier ilvl and no other class really needs a dagger. Hemo on the other hand still does more damage than any hybrid spec but is a rogue build with a raid utility from the hemo debuff and gets stronger via scaling in late game.

10/28/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Matcauthon
And the fact that you right off affliction because of ruin based builds is hilarious

You mean it's ridiculous that a build that spends 30 points in the affliction tree, and 21 points in the destruction tree is considered an affliction build by default? I mean as I said, it's arguable that ruin is the more important talent to get, but it doesn't change the fact of where the majority of those points go. DS/Ruin is the #2 most popular PvE build and is a pure hybrid spec with 21 each in demo and Destro... and MD/Ruin is the #3 build which is more utility based, at the cost of damage and dropped 30 into Demo.

To do more with the lock trees you'd need to open up the debuff system, and for that all 3 specs would get some more usage. Demo builds could bake a curse of doom buff into Soul link (so the resulting damage boost is pve only), affliction builds would have all their dots to play around with, and destro builds would be able to apply immolate and use conflag.

Now do you actually want to discuss class balance? Because it seemed like you did before, back when YOU suggested we talk about class balance, and yet here you've still yet provide anything but some pathetically limp attempts to troll.
3 Likes
10/28/2018 11:53 PMPosted by Åpocalypse
10/28/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Matcauthon
As for your changes where they basically get mana regen mechanics, it's great in theory but makes them beast mode at leveling and dungeons.
Leveling content doesn't matter, troll... If it did, warlocks and hunters would have been nerfed into the ground and warriors would have to get even more buffs... Try being slightly less than completely stupid in your future replies.

10/28/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Matcauthon
Especially based on what you're counting as viable for rogue builds
How so, exactly? The two combat builds (Sword/Fist/Mace and daggers) are the top two builds until late game scaling lets Seal Fate compete.... Basic itemization also incentivizes dagger builds early since Perditions has an AQ40 tier ilvl and no other class really needs a dagger. Hemo on the other hand still does more damage than any hybrid spec but is a rogue build with a raid utility from the hemo debuff and gets stronger via scaling in late game.

10/28/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Matcauthon
And the fact that you right off affliction because of ruin based builds is hilarious

You mean it's ridiculous that a build that spends 30 points in the affliction tree, and 21 points in the destruction tree is considered an affliction build by default? I mean as I said, it's arguable that ruin is the more important talent to get, but it doesn't change the fact of where the majority of those points go. DS/Ruin is the #2 most popular PvE build and is a pure hybrid spec with 21 each in demo and Destro... and MD/Ruin is the #3 build which is more utility based, at the cost of damage and dropped 30 into Demo.

To do more with the lock trees you'd need to open up the debuff system, and for that all 3 specs would get some more usage. Demo builds could bake a curse of doom buff into Soul link (so the resulting damage boost is pve only), affliction builds would have all their dots to play around with, and destro builds would be able to apply immolate and use conflag.

Now do you actually want to discuss class balance? Because it seemed like you did before, back when YOU suggested we talk about class balance, and yet here you've still yet provide anything but some pathetically limp attempts to troll.


No the thing is in vanilla there was 3 tiers of leveling. They were pretty evenly spaced and the way it lined up made it not as bad. The issue would come with bumping the hybrids up with the mages locks and hunters and thus creating a huge gap back to the warrior and rogue.
Let's put it in perspective.

You have group 1. Then a day behind you have group 2. Then a day behind you have group 3. Doesn't seem so bad. But when you buff group 2 to group 1 and have group 3 in the dust it does create an issue.
I love how you keep trying to say that this build that was viable in naxx gear that a ret paladin at that level with nightfall was contributing more to the raids dps then a rogue was no matter what spec.
And hemo? No raid is going to waste a debuff slot on hemo.
That build may spend 30 points in affliction but it doesn't play like a dot based lock at all.
And why I am against your mana regen mechanic goes deeper then just leveling
Think of the dungeon implications. The fights are short enough that mana regen isn't an issue. All of a sudden they are buffing, healing, and dpsing all at once. No more need for a pure healer spec.

Look I like your thoughts. I really do. I wouldn't be completely against giving hybrids some love. But the problem is that while you may be fine with a little love, there are those out there who want them to be competive. People like ziryus who would latch onto even the smallest change and whine his way to hybrids being competitive as heck. And he's not the only one. Despite your claims otherwise. Havd you met akadian? (Spelling?)
Oh, for God's sake, why are we arguing over hybrid DPS again...

How about both camps just shut up about it, and "let you do you". Everyone will find a home in which they can play as they wish with like-minded players, sooner or later.

* * *

I agree that classes were more unique, and that this made them both less and more challenging to pick than retail.

If you only care about what you want to do at end-game, and you know all of the trade-offs for each class, then it's easy.

If you care about how the classes play, their lore etc. and/or you do not know what you want to do or all the trade-offs involved, then it is much more difficult, especially since maintaining alts is so much more demanding.
10/29/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Matcauthon
No the thing is in vanilla there was 3 tiers of leveling. They were pretty evenly spaced and the way it lined up made it not as bad. The issue would come with bumping the hybrids up with the mages locks and hunters and thus creating a huge gap back to the warrior and rogue.


First, I'd disagree with Rogue leveling being all that slow... They're one of the more efficient grinding classes in the game with things like Remorseless attacks and early hit and parry talents in the combat tree.... The dagger builds are super slow I will admit (maybe even the worst in the game), and I'm confident the strafe-facestab thing Pserver players do didn't work back in REAL vanilla so I'll somewhat agree from that perspective.

I'd also argue warriors really aren't that slow, but I'd add a qualifier that they only gain speed 25+ and a second qualifier that my warrior experience is based off Pservers where you could sit-proc enrage (which I'm not sure worked in REAL vanilla)

10/29/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Matcauthon
And why I am against your mana regen mechanic goes deeper then just leveling
Think of the dungeon implications. The fights are short enough that mana regen isn't an issue. All of a sudden they are buffing, healing, and dpsing all at once. No more need for a pure healer spec.

Mana regen buffs specifically need to be minimal returns over time. For example my idea for enhance was white attacks (maybe even including WF proc swings) while storm strike is up generate between 0.5%-1% base mana.... That isn't going to give them mana for an extra heal quickly, but it will give them a chunk of sustainability that they currently lack (and an added gimmick of perhaps weapon swapping to a dagger when oom to regen better for a bit).
Elemental is actually the much tougher spec to do mana regen with, since they can actually heal decently well... My thought there was flame shock ticks (limited to a single application of flame shock) if there's no debuff limit...

10/29/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Matcauthon
And hemo? No raid is going to waste a debuff slot on hemo.
If it's still sub par, then boost the debuff up (though perhaps keep the further boost from adding to the rogues personal dps to prevent pvp concerns)... Alternatively if the debuff limit ends up being removed, then looking at Rupture for Sub might be worthwhile. It's got talents for it already.

10/29/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Matcauthon
People like ziryus who would latch onto even the smallest change and whine his way to hybrids being competitive as heck. And he's not the only one. Despite your claims otherwise. Havd you met akadian? (Spelling?)
I care about as much about people who want to break hybrids (by making them overpowered) as I do about people who want to keep them in their OG broken state that gets them laughed out of groups.

10/29/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Matcauthon
I love how you keep trying to say that this build that was viable in naxx gear that a ret paladin at that level with nightfall was contributing more to the raids dps then a rogue was no matter what spec.
Nightfall should be deleted on principle alone.. It's a bandaid covering a severed arm that was meant to aid certain hybrids... and ironically worst wielded by those two hybrids (Ret and Enhance are two of the worst specs to hold it).... Also I'd dispute the notion that A ret with nightfall is bringing more to the raid than a geared rogue, particularly by the naxx level where the rogue is dealing almost 3x the damage that the ret is, when the ret is using a real weapon and not a MC level epic. Particularly when the nightfall debuff could be better applied by your warriors that aren't currently tanking (the exception here being the 4h fight where it's all hands on deck for the warrior tanks)
1 Like
10/29/2018 12:44 AMPosted by Åpocalypse
10/29/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Matcauthon
No the thing is in vanilla there was 3 tiers of leveling. They were pretty evenly spaced and the way it lined up made it not as bad. The issue would come with bumping the hybrids up with the mages locks and hunters and thus creating a huge gap back to the warrior and rogue.


First, I'd disagree with Rogue leveling being all that slow... They're one of the more efficient grinding classes in the game with things like Remorseless attacks and early hit and parry talents in the combat tree.... The dagger builds are super slow I will admit (maybe even the worst in the game), and I'm confident the strafe-facestab thing Pserver players do didn't work back in REAL vanilla so I'll somewhat agree from that perspective.

I'd also argue warriors really aren't that slow, but I'd add a qualifier that they only gain speed 25+ and a second qualifier that my warrior experience is based off Pservers where you could sit-proc enrage (which I'm not sure worked in REAL vanilla)

10/29/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Matcauthon
And why I am against your mana regen mechanic goes deeper then just leveling
Think of the dungeon implications. The fights are short enough that mana regen isn't an issue. All of a sudden they are buffing, healing, and dpsing all at once. No more need for a pure healer spec.

Mana regen buffs specifically need to be minimal returns over time. For example my idea for enhance was white attacks (maybe even including WF proc swings) while storm strike is up generate between 0.5%-1% base mana.... That isn't going to give them mana for an extra heal quickly, but it will give them a chunk of sustainability that they currently lack (and an added gimmick of perhaps weapon swapping to a dagger when oom to regen better for a bit).
Elemental is actually the much tougher spec to do mana regen with, since they can actually heal decently well... My thought there was flame shock ticks (limited to a single application of flame shock) if there's no debuff limit...

10/29/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Matcauthon
And hemo? No raid is going to waste a debuff slot on hemo.
If it's still sub par, then boost the debuff up (though perhaps keep the further boost from adding to the rogues personal dps to prevent pvp concerns)... Alternatively if the debuff limit ends up being removed, then looking at Rupture for Sub might be worthwhile. It's got talents for it already.

10/29/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Matcauthon
People like ziryus who would latch onto even the smallest change and whine his way to hybrids being competitive as heck. And he's not the only one. Despite your claims otherwise. Havd you met akadian? (Spelling?)
I care about as much about people who want to break hybrids (by making them overpowered) as I do about people who want to keep them in their OG broken state that gets them laughed out of groups.

10/29/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Matcauthon
I love how you keep trying to say that this build that was viable in naxx gear that a ret paladin at that level with nightfall was contributing more to the raids dps then a rogue was no matter what spec.
Nightfall should be deleted on principle alone.. It's a bandaid covering a severed arm that was meant to aid certain hybrids... and ironically worst wielded by those two hybrids (Ret and Enhance are two of the worst specs to hold it).... Also I'd dispute the notion that A ret with nightfall is bringing more to the raid than a geared rogue, particularly by the naxx level where the rogue is dealing almost 3x the damage that the ret is, when the ret is using a real weapon and not a MC level epic. Particularly when the nightfall debuff could be better applied by your warriors that aren't currently tanking (the exception here being the 4h fight where it's all hands on deck for the warrior tanks)
rogues are one of the worst classes because they have to face tank. Combined with low mitigation and no heal means they take a lot of damage even with the dodge and parry. Even non dagger rogues.

For hybrids 1% isn't going to do crap for specs that are going oom a minute and half into the fight.

Removing the debuff limit would require a crap ton of rebalancing. Part of me would like to see what that is like.
10/29/2018 12:50 AMPosted by Matcauthon
Removing the debuff limit would require a crap ton of rebalancing. Part of me would like to see what that is like.


Seems worth pointing out that the debuff limit was a technical limitation of the original client. Since Blizzard is using the modern client for this project, and the modern client has no debuff limit, that means the Debuff limit is already gone.

The question is, will the developers be able to introduce an artificial debuff limit to the game, and will they find it worthwhile enough to do so?
10/29/2018 01:12 AMPosted by Kiyrin
10/29/2018 12:50 AMPosted by Matcauthon
Removing the debuff limit would require a crap ton of rebalancing. Part of me would like to see what that is like.


Seems worth pointing out that the debuff limit was a technical limitation of the original client. Since Blizzard is using the modern client for this project, and the modern client has no debuff limit, that means the Debuff limit is already gone.

The question is, will the developers be able to introduce an artificial debuff limit to the game, and will they find it worthwhile enough to do so?
if it is gone they would need to majority rebalance the game.