Stop.
Saurfang did not blow up Teldrassil.
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âŚIâm talking about Sylvanas, and saying Saurfang did good by rebelling early and not going along with her for as long as the other Horde leaders did. Do you have any reading comprehension?
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You implied Saurfang was evil here, so I thought you were also attributing the tree to him.
Read again very carefully. I did not. I said he did not have his character assassinated and that the other Horde leaders, those who were not portrayed as evil but went along with Sylvanas for a long time such as Lorâthemar, Rokhan, Thalyssra etc, those guys had their characters assassinated.
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I thought you were implying that Horde who said his character were assassinated are lying because he has always been evil. Sorry for the misunderstanding. People keep mischaracterizing Saurfang, so I tend to squash that out quick.
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To bad thatâs all Saurfang did.
Yeah, hard no on that. Volâjins reaction to Garrosh was realistic.
Trying to be killed multiple times, if you want a person stopped⌠No. You See making weak excusses for horrible writing.
Thatâs what happened though.
Sad Baine for example seemed not too different.
Yes the writing was Bad. This dosenât mean Saurfangs character wasnât assassinated.
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Thalyssraâs known the Alliance for like⌠five minutes, how does she have any inkling of them ânever changingâ? Actually, her entire society just had a major upheaval and has fundamentally changed.
The worst anyone associated with the Alliance has done to her is say meanish words.
Also itâs a little hard for the Alliance to forget anything given the compressed timeline. Thereâs basically a two year difference between the end of Garroshâs Horde, and the Burning/War of Thorns. Objectively speaking, even the most forgiving, tolerant, and laid back of groups would go âyo, wtfâ in regards to that. Probably also doesnât help that a lot of the Alliance races are longer lived. Even a draenei on the younger side has experienced a veritable flurry of stuff at the hands of groups calling themselves the Horde in a fraction of the time.
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Tyrande hasnât changed in ten thousand years.
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The Horde has a narrative problem of not putting actions to their words. Iâm all for a balance in ethics between the faction, but it gets a little grating when the players are constantly told âweâve changed!â only to get stabbed in the back an expansion or two later.
The orcs assembled under Garrosh completely free of demon blood. Warlords showed us they were almost as bloodthirsty WITHOUT the demon blood. And in the latest war, theyâve shown to be plenty bloodthirsty for Alliance blood on a whim.
They need to practice what they preach.
The undead are crafting bioweapons to eradicate life, and they use living beings as guinea pigs for it, including puppies and fellow members of the Horde. Then thereâs literally everything in Darkshore.
They need to practice what they preach.
Zandalar was openly assisting the Horde in their war of extermination. There were Zandalari troops present at the attack at Anglepoint Wharf. Zandalari assassins are killing Aromâs Stand civilians in Drustvar. There are live dinosaurs being unleashed on the civilians in Boralus.
They cannot claim neutrality while actively menacing the Alliance.
No, but the Horde was sure as hell complacent in it. And in Shadows Rising, they agree - which is why Tyrande is giving them the opportunity to clean up the mess they made to a degree rather than violently achieve vengeance.
Daelin.
If the Horde would like to change, itâd be great if they could do so without causing massive swaths of Alliance death every time they needed to find themselves, then crying when their claims of turning over a new leaf are met with skepticism.
The Alliance sure as hell isnât flawless themselves, but letâs not pretend for a single moment that the Horde are put upon martyrs. If they wanted the Alliance to forget, they shouldâve thought about that BEFORE helping a megalomaniacal madwoman in her campaign for world death. I for one welcome their chance to change, but theyâve definitely earned the intense criticism they get.
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The problem is that Bizzard has no idea how to write the Horde except as evil villians and while simultaneously bowing to the âAlliance has never done anything wrongâ meme. I mean, in the book, Horde members who werenât even with the Horde during Teldrassil seem to feel the need to be shamed while they go out of their way to avoid any mentioned of Dalaran.
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If Blizzard has demonstrated that they want the Horde to be in the category of âconstantly doing awful, evil things, but wanting to be betterâ, and isnât allowing them to improve, by choosing to remain Horde side - youâre subscribing to that Horde.
Blizzard wonât listen to players on story - they have said as much. If this Horde isnât behaving the way you want your Horde to behave, find a new faction, because it wonât be changing.
Youâre not wrong about both factions being tired of this crap; nothing changes, we get no new stories, and itâs going to be miserable forever. Thatâs just how it is.
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It never stops surprising me to see how some Horde players really believe they are the innocent victims.
Orcs and Night Elves:
NE gave them lumber for many years while the Orcs kept chopping down their forests and then repayed them by launching not one but two major assaults to their lands last one ending in a Genocide.
Humans and Forsaken:
Why canât Humans accept us oh poor undead people? Why do they have to see us as monters? ⌠a conversation between two undead while experimenting on live human subjectsâŚ
Blood elves and Humans:
Why is Jaina acting so crazy? We only used Dalaran to transport magical items in order to make a WMD and erease Theramor from the face of Azeroth.
Zandalari and the Alliance:
Zadalari trolls have invaded and tried to conquere lands attacking both Hord and Alliance and now they are shocked to see Alliance attacking them? Oh poor victims they are.
Itâs time for the Horde to grow a spine and own up to what theyâve done.
They wanna be viewd as good guys? then stop your warmongering ways.
Deal with it and change already.
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Where? In his cell he was sitting there brooding. No doubt. But he met everyone with open hostility. Then he went into the Swamp to cosplay as Shrek, then started tracking assassins, apparently.
Volâjin wasnât Saurfang, Saurfang wasnât Volâjin.
Volâjin was outraged at how his people were being treated, regulated to slums and being treated as second class citizens to the orcs that they had been so close to since they first met. Then Garrosh tried to have Volâjin killed in a pretty shady way.
Saurfang had a lot more history behind him. Heâs already evidenced to have some mental trauma to the point that he refuses to eat pork just because the SOUND of boars being slaughtered reminds him of his time under demonic corruption. Survivorâs guilt, iirc, is something thatâs been a part of Saurfangâs backstory for as long as I can remember because of incidents in the Third War during Hyjal.
40-50 years of being of fighting age, and heâs plagued by 30-40 years of horrible memories and watching the Horde yo-yo between being something he could be proud of and⌠well. What we got in BfA.
You donât think that even a hardened war veteran canât just lose motivation against something thatâs shown no signs of being willing to be fixed? After being made complicit in yet another genocide after the first couple messed him up so severely?
Iâm not saying the writing was good for this expansion. In fact, Iâve hated the vast majority of it and Iâve not exactly been shy about that.
The more people talk about it, the more convinced I am that people are just upset that a character was shown to have a moment of weakness or some other flaws. That, in and of itself, is not bad writing. Itâs not exactly out of the bounds of realism, it ties into his past issues, and delves into trauma. Itâs like⌠one of two things I actually liked story wise.
God forbid anyone be shown to have negative emotions that isnât unyielding rage.
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I could be wrong, but it feels like like youâre missing the point. The story theyâre trying to tell with the Horde isnât consistent, and thatâs why Horde players are angry.
Yes, we subscribed to the Horde, through various times where the Horde was different things. For those who read up on Thrallâs rise to power, theyâve been given a specific image of the Horde to aspire to, but we havenât seen it with exception to small glimpses since.
That wouldnât be bad, if every other thing the Horde has done hasnât just been thrown to the fire too. Even this theme of change isnât even consistent, as they will look back and change all prier lore to conform with what we have at the moment. Itâs something theyâve been especially fond of recently.
And for the record: Theyâve been listening to players for the story for the longest time, so even if they did say they donât itâs just an outright lie. Itâs why some things suddenly change at the blink of an eye in Beta/Alpha stages when people donât like it enough.
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I feel like thatâs what a lot of people complain about, but I think the underlying cause of the bad reaction to Saurfang was that he was presented as the one and only face of the initial resistance to Sylvanas.
His reaction was 100% fitting for Saurfang, but it was not the sort of reaction that many people wanted for the Horde honor figurehead meant to oppose Sylvanas - as it made the two options out to look like âkeep supporting someone who comitted genocideâ or âhave a trauma-induced BSOD and go sit with the Allianceâ without a middle ground.
In that sense, I think a lot of the negative reaction to Saurfangâs behavior was from people who wanted to support the honor Horde, but didnât want to copy Saurfangâs depression. (Which, just as it was completely fitting for Saurfang because of his own story, was not completely fitting for every other honor Horde character.)
That and his opposition to Sylvanas also made him a target of both types of Sylvanas supporters: those who like everything sheâs done and those who hate what the story did to her to make her the villain counterpart to Saurfang.
Which I think is too bad - I really liked this reaction by Saurfang, and I wouldnât want to change it. The story just really needed to have another active honor Horde character to represent the faction while Saurfang underwent his fitting character reaction.
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It certainly doesnât help that Saurfang was the main architect of the start of the war in the first place. Heâs not just some random soldier, so (to me, at least) the choice never really came down to the whole honor VS pragmatism garbage the game wanted you to think. It was picking between one war criminal or another while you werenât allowed to opt out, and then have both of them snub you at one point or another.
Like sure, Saurfangâs actions make sense in the context of BFA. BFA sucked though, so its garbage rained down on him too.
Edit: Also the expansion was practically screaming from the rooftop about his eventual death, which was going to go over like a lead balloon when the faction already feels starved of good characters to begin with.
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I wonât lie to you, every single time I see one of these excerpts I get extremely pissed off and wonder where the hell this sort of treatment was for any one of the other dozens of cultures our characters get to annihilate while being endlessly reassured at all times that it was not only okay but The Most Morally Correct thing to do.
Hereâs what the last living Drakkari gets to say to you in Dazarâalor:
Come to mock? Come to laugh at the speaker for a fallen empire?
Any troll of ZulâDrak not claimed by da Scourge was broken by dem. In their death throws, my people slew our loa, stealing the power of dese gods to wield against the Scourge, and then they died as well.
I be here, now, as little more than a pet for these Zandalari. An oddity dey pull out to show dere children somethinâ exotic.
Leave me be.
Such dark promises of inevitable vengeance! Such icy rage at the injustices heaped upon his people by those who dare walk in the light and consider themselves good and righteous! Such wait no none of thatâs there, this NPC seems to be bitterly aware that his fictional societyâs role in the plot was to be morally-wholesome murder-fodder whose demise was at best tragic-yet-inevitable and shouldnât be viewed with any real remorse by anyone ever save in the most abstract and clinical sense.
Warcraft is barely morally aware enough as a franchise to grasp that genocide is a bad thing, and only seems to have attained this level of sophistication by adding âif it happens to one of the protagonist-culturesâ onto it.
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âOnly inosents remain in the treeâ does all Horde know that? In "Old soldier they showed a dilemma keep walking to his execution or fight becouse Zechan deserves to live? Sylvanas used the same argument in the end of Lordaeron senario toward Baine. His reactant âFor the Hordeâ is to sow that he dosnt agree with her but he must fight becouse Alliance is coming and he must protect his people.
The alliance isnât real.
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How Can Mirrors Be Real If Our Eyes Arenât Real?
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