If you say so i have seen you around you do strike me as a heavy defender of her though i have seen worse namely from a blood elf paladin.
it’s not sylvanas fault that writers make her dumber to get easier reason to kill her.
Just look at GoT, smartest men alive became idiots. Because DnD are idiots.
Oh indeed I do defend the Horde and Sylvanas’s position! I just dont see myself as a “Sylvanas did nothing wrong” sort of poster. But others probably do.
She has done many things wrong. Her “dramatic” moments involving Arthas and Malfurion are chief among her errors. She was written to spare them, and that seems laughable.
This woman never learns. She should resist the urge to take prisoners at this point and just kill. With her track record, burning Teldrassil was probably smarter for her than trying to keep it hostage. Imagine her trying to give them all speeches as they slink away and escape?
When she gives people a moment to escape - they use it.
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Well you are still beat out by the one guy that said burning civilains was morally right and honrable because winning is all that matters and morals are jokes.
It DOES feel like some straight up “Garrosh in Stonetalon” type ****. Makes me assume that the story and the game are written by different people again.
Either that, or she was straight up just tricking Saurfang. Which is entirely possible.
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Lordaeron was a well-played trap for an impulsive boy playing the role of soldier. It would have been a decapitating victory for the Horde…if it wasn’t for Jaina Proudmoore, an appearance that no one could have looked for.
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That is the Warcraft explanation for werewolves Worgen being affected by moon light - it being Elune’s gaze - which was a bigger factor back in Classic when the Pyrewood Village NPCs would change from Human to Worgen at night (except one Forsaken Worgen that stayed Worgen day and night).
The idea that Elune would shine down her light on the Night Elves would likely not encourage the Worgen to temper their rage for Gilneas, and if anything it might make the Worgen even more resentful instead. So if anything, Malfurion’s survival could potentially have pushed the Gilneans even further away, or at least Sylvanas might have known this if she learned about the origin of the Worgen curse when she worked with Alpha Prime back on her attack on Gilneas.
Tyrande initiating the Night Warrior ritual, however, shifts Elune from light to darkness, blocking out light on Darkshore, not shining her light down to temper vengence, instead encouraging it, and in that darkness the Worgen - at least the ones that join Tyrande in the Horde quest “The Dead of Night” and get enhanced by the Night Warrior ritual, too - unify even more with the Night Elves.
Which, granted, is exactly what Sylvanas hoped for:
- Anduin Wrynn would have lashed out in a final, desperate war, looking for a miracle, because only a miracle would save them.
But then Alleria and Jaina show up to be that “miracle” (not Malfurion’s survival like Sylvanas was ranting in her mind about in that monologue). Sylvanas really should stop betting against “miracles.” It has consistently not been paying off for her.
When I say he succumbs to being paralyzed by self-doubt and despair this is exactly why I am talking about. He has conflicting emotions which Sylvanas directly manipulates. She isn’t correct, his gut instinct is to know she is not correct, but because of his conflicting emotions and Sylvanas psychological manipulation of him in that moment, he temporarily succumbs to her. Obviously, since he has now formed a rebellion, he has shaken himself out of it and realized his original reaction was the correct. Sylvanas lied to him to drag the Horde into a needlessly destructive war and must answer for it, hopefully in blood.
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says who tho
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My player character
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I never said anything about Elune ‘shining down her light’. Just that the Night Elves might interpret Malfurion’s miraculous survival a certain way and act differently because of it.
Plus, the current Worgen underwent balancing rituals. Whereas the ancient Worgen specifically said balance could jog off. We already know Genn said he would go for Teldrassil before Gilneas. So I’m not sure what this line of thinking is for.
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/fans himself
I do declare, I must be getting the vapors.
The fan fiction written here rivals the steamy romance novels in game.
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I wasn’t meaning your thoughts, but Sylvanas’:
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Even in this dark hour, they would say, Elune still watches over us.
And that was almost certainly true, wasn’t it? Elune had intervened. Perhaps she had even stayed Saurfang’s killing blow.
Which she perhaps was correct about, because Elune’s merciful light was what Saurfang experienced:
- He lifted his axe. And hesitated. Seconds passed, then whole minutes, and Saurfang could not bring it down.
He felt light and warmth shine upon him from above. It held sorrow, hope, and love. Perhaps this was Elune welcoming Malfurion to the next life. Perhaps that made this acceptable.
But this kill is not mine.
At this point, Saurfang, Baine, Thrall, Rokhan, Lor’themar, and Thalyssra. That’s the leadership of five Horde races against the leadership of the three that support Sylvanas, and the three that are on the fence (and that’s being generous and saying Mayla isn’t siding with Baine and Ji is still busy off punching dinos).
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See, the problem here is that Sylvanas was thinking Genn was the same selfish jerk we saw up to and including WC3. Not the Jesus-like altruist of Wolfheart and thereafter.
The lesson is that unpredictable character swings make it impossible to strategize effectively. Alas for Sylvanas, done in by inconsistent writing. Just like us!
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She also had the chance to kill the alliance player but decided that “no” to make you watch.
She would probably had won the war at this point without the alliance champion.
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His altruism has hardly been Jesus-like. Genn has been naturally softening some of his positions since Cataclysm because of circumstances. Sylvanas didn’t make enough effort to understand his current mindset.
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Baine was watching her closely. Some days she wished he would just follow his big, bleeding heart and turn to the Alliance. But her disdain for the tauren’s gentleness did not eclipse her need of them. As long as Baine remained loyal — and thus far he has, where it counted — she would use him and his people to the Horde’s advantage.
I feel this passage from Before the Storm sort of covers a lot of Sylvanas philosophy with regard to her tools.
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This is why my girl here doesn’t have flashy witty banter during RP battles or waste time being sadistic about it (well, also she’s not very funny and she opposes unnecessary suffering). She just wants to kill the enemy as quickly and cleanly as possible and move on to the next one before they all get away.
And this is why she speaks the Horde’s languages and cultivates friendships among them (genuine ones, I should add). It’s hard to defeat an enemy you don’t understand. Or maybe I should say it’s easier to defeat one you do understand.
None of which has anything much to do with the current conversation except insofar as I really think a lot of the posters on the Lore forums would make excellent additions to the writing team. …but I wouldn’t really wish it on them, you lot all seem like nice enough people.
I agree, and have broken down that scene with Imerus before, but here would add that first part as well:
Saurfang starts out correctly blaming Sylvanas:
- He struggled to form words. Finally, pure hatred made him spit out a condemnation. “You have damned the Horde for a thousand generations. All of us. And for what? For what?”
And then Sylvanas uses his emotional state to lash out at Saurfang so he’ll suffer as well (as I analyzed Sylvanas having an emotional break down up in an earlier post):
- Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back. When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”
Saurfang still knows she was to blame:
- He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike.
But Saurfang buys into her emotional abuse:
- But she was right.
And Saurfang starts to blame himself just like Sylvanas wants in shifting blame off of herself (which she earlier admitted to):
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A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.
And then Saurfang starts to spiral into self-doubt very similarly to how Sylvanas herself did as well:
- The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.
Saurfang starting to regret ever having agreed to Sylvanas’ plan:
- That had been certain the moment Saurfang had led the Horde into Ashenvale. And it would have been what he had feared most: the meat grinder, spending so many lives to achieve so little, ending with a whimper, and thus dooming future generations to a war nobody could win.
Victimizing himself to appealing to Sylvanas’ authority:
- Once again, Sylvanas had seen it before he had.
Sylvanas having turned his beliefs into a mockery of what they were:
- She had sent a message. This was not a war that would end in a stalemate. Not now. The Alliance and the Horde would both understand that the only choices were victory or death. Lok‐tar ogar.
Blaming himself for all the losses of life, even those that hadn’t happened yet:
- Darnassus would not be the last city to burn. The loss of life on both sides would tower over this atrocity. And it would all rest on his shoulders. Every moment would be a nightmare.
Punishing himself for Sylvanas’ actions:
- Sylvanas turned back toward the World Tree, watching it burn. Saurfang made himself watch the flames consume city and citizens alike. He would not dishonor himself further by turning away.
Ashamed and punishing himself for reveling in war:
- The screams continued. They reminded him of Shattrath. He had loved the sound, then. Smoke filled the air, reminding him of Stormwind, of racing through the streets as buildings burned all around him, finding cowering humans and butchering them as they begged for their lives. He had loved the slaughter, then.
And he had loved this war, too, hadn’t he?
Directly describing what he was feeling:
- Saurfang did not move for hours, not until the screams faded and the flames had burned themselves down to embers. Before him stood a smoking husk that had once been a great civilization. Inside him was a feeling of despair, a feeling of shame. There was no haze of corruption now to soften the horror.
Saurfang would remember this moment in his dreams forever. He would relive this shame, and all the new ones to come, over and over again.
Blaming himself for what Sylvanas had done:
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You have led your Horde in the service of death, Malfurion had said.
How could Saurfang face the soldiers he had led into this war? How could he explain what they had done?
He couldn’t. He would never know how.
But the burden would be his, always, until his dying day.
And suicidal thoughts to conclude it all:
- As Saurfang turned away, he hoped that day would come soon.
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I would want to posit a scenario: so let’s say Malfurion was killed by Sylvanas, and Teldrassil was not burned, but taken hostage, with about the same number of casualties as it took for the Horde to climb up Darkshore. I have some questions I’d love to see some speculation on, as I don’t actually see people explore the possibilities of this.
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Teldrassil is taken hostage to insure against Alliance aggression. Would it be considered as evil (assuming one thinks the Burning was evil) if Sylvanas had taken the tree, someone from the Alliance breaks those terms, and she then burns it along with all those civilians?
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Similarly, if the Alliance had attacked Lordaeron first, as many people were hoping when BfA was announced, would it change the context of the Burning? So the Burning would be in response to the attack on Lordaeron.
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Would the Burning have been seen as more justified had there been more Forsaken civilian deaths at the battle of Lordaeron?
It can be fun to explore reframing of certain events, I think. I honestly believe if Blizzard had only made a few adjustments, the Burning would not have tipped the morality scales so hard in one direction, leading to a better-feeling story (and maybe even avoiding this stupid ****ing Horde civil war plotline and THREE STRAIGHT CINEMATICS of Sadfang being Sad.)
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