That only happens if the Horde wins an honorable victory

That’s even more gaps between Sylvanas’ thoughts and that - which, also notably, we never actually get Sylvanas thinking up. But speculating that Sylvanas did, “destroy hope” and “Tyrande tries to take Darkshore” don’t really go hand in hand, either, since what Sylvanas wanted by killing hope in A Good War was:

    This conquest of Darnassus would rattle the kaldorei people. They would grieve for their lost, fear for their imprisoned, and tremble at the thought of the Horde ransacking their homes... they would... fall to despair.

That doesn’t really tie in well with the Night Elves leaving to attack on their own.

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It really did not.

Yes, per Saurfang and Sylvanas emotional inner monologues but not objectively speaking if you follow everything the plan entailed. They still have the city there for the taking, full of plunder, ready to be held hostage. Malfurion being spared is beneficial for the night elves in their individual fight, sure, but how does it insure the unity of the entire Alliance, exactly? The whole plan is for the night elves to demand their city back first, with other parts of the Alliance disagreeing and splitting off. Malfurion being alive doesn’t actually alter that. Burning the city and coming away with a dishonorable victory does, by her own admission when laying out the entire point of the war. She altered the circumstances, not Saurfang.

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I find the opposite to be more likely the case. A Good War and Elegy are available online right now for anyone to read for free without even having had to get the collector’s edition book.

The War of the Thorns in-game event is no longer available, and its quest and broadcast text not very easily available to anyone who doesn’t know how to dig through Wowhead like us.

New comers to the game likely won’t ever know the in-game event that happened, however they can look through the stories online that are available.

In this sense, the in-game events are more likely to be considered to be non-canon.

Not necessarily. In A Good War Malfurion gets up like it was nothing:

    There was a tremendous explosion of darkness, and then a rising sound of collapsing trees. Saurfang ducked behind cover as an object flew through the air, bouncing off tree trunks before slamming to a halt in the dirt only thirty feet away.

    The object raised its head—his head.

    Saurfang saw antlers. Without thinking, he threw his axe.

    The moment it left his hands, he wanted to call it back. That was Malfurion Stormrage, alive and preparing to rejoin the fight against the warchief.

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Didn’t you just earlier note that Sylvanas was hiding things? And in that passage, Saurfang is the one that brings up the Gilneans. In the end the split in the Alliance does manifest when Tyrande and Genn leave to retake Darkshore rather than follow Anduin’s orders. Just because Genn joined her, that doesn’t mean there isn’t a wedge. And in a way, the whole Night Warrior shtick is Tyrande giving up hope - Just as she gave up everything precious to her to undertake the ritual and take revenge.

Long-term, I think it’s most likely that the divide in the Alliance comes to fruition on the matter of the Horde civil war. As long as the question of what to do with the Horde goes unresolved the Alliance will remain united, but when Anduin chooses to follow in his father’s footsteps on the matter, there will be a schism on what should be done.

That is Spuddyc’s point, that Sylvanas sold the Horde on the idea of an honorable war that she wasn’t necessarily ever actually going to deliver on.

And Sylvanas is the one explaining how the Gilneans would be the wedge:

It was Sylvanas’ idea.

If it was Genn’s voice alone you might be right, but it is Anduin who treats it as not a wedge but an advantage:

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Well, the grandeous ‘killing hope’ would probably have multiple influences. Though, the specifics of that passage are probably met in the Dark Rangers who do seem to have fallen to despair. Losing faith in Elune and now working against their people. Obviously not quite the same situation, but I think evidence of losing hope.

Saurfang and Sylvanas disagree.

We can only go off their thoughts as we don’t know what would have happened objectively had they just taken Teldrassil hostage then.

In theory, because the entire Alliance would take hope from the story. And that they would focus more on working together because of it.

It does if they manage to work together better as a whole due to his miraculous survival.

I will have to grant you the technicality that the Undead Night Elves that join the Forsaken are technically splitting off from the Alliance, and that they have seemingly lost hope, yes. But the technicality ends there, as some Night Elves going traitor is not the same as entire nations abandoning the Alliance.

Once again, by Sylvanas’ thoughts Genn should still want to prioritize Gilneas over Teldrassil. Sylvanas has no reason to believe Genn would care about Malfurion’s survival, as Sylvanas doesn’t believe Genn cares about the Night Elves over Gilneas in general.

I mean, these are two different results. The quote you clipped was about the reaction of average Kaldorei. While the whole ‘splitting nations’ was more about leader reaction of force allocation.

Again, I would peg it at two things. The first being army coordination working better together (humans seeing his survival as the Light, so on). The second being leader coordination. With Malfurion surviving, the Night Elves might be more willing to cooperate with certain plans if they have the whole hope in Elune/saved Malfurion thing.

Their thoughts which are driven by emotion in the heat of battle and in contradiction to their own previously discussed plans and strategizing. We have the whole text, not just the paragraphs in that moment.

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Beyond the average Kaldorei, Sylvanas doesn’t think upon how the Night Elves, specifically their leadership, would react. The only thoughts we have on Sylvanas for the reaction of an Alliance leader is Anduin attacking out of desperation, which she later admits actually unifies the Alliance:

    Anduin Wrynn would have lashed out in a final, desperate war, looking for a miracle, because only a miracle would save them.

    “They will come for us now. All of them!” he said.

    “I know.” She was calm, as though nothing were wrong. “They will attack the Undercity in retaliation. You will need to plan our defenses. Begin evacuating my people.”

Which goes back to Spuddyc’s original point that Sylvanas admits this is exactly what would happen if the Horde tried to win the war dishonorably.

The Night Elves would be invigorated into taking back Teldrassil, not taking Lordaeron or Gilneas. This does not factor into Sylvanas’ opinions of Genn.

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I am not sure why she thinks destroying the night elves means the entire alliance will be on its last leg or even fractured tg
Hat they wont reunite to kill her and get everything back .

Thoughts that, to me, seem in line with the plan within changing circumstances.

Yeah, I’m just speculating because it doesn’t spell out every detail. Her orginal thought was the Night Elves would push for Teldrassil. Instead they push for Darkshore.

Except for the ‘coming in pain’ part. We’ve just come full circle on a conversation we’ve both had with each other already. Changing specifics to circumstances.

Spuddyc can keep addressing this with me if he likes, but as I said before, I don’t think the two of us will go over anything new in the topic.

Or they might have been patient, trusting into Elune, and allowing pursuit of different plans that better assuage Genn’s desire for Gilneas.

True true. This does come back to “coming in pain” wouldn’t actually split the Alliance, and Sylvanas making no efforts to actually think it would.

That actually might not work for the Worgen specifically, as it is Elune wanting them to temper themselves that sets the Worgen burden off:

If anything, oddly enough, it is the Night Warrior aspect of Elune embracing vengeance that would make the Worgen align even more with the Night Elves, not Elune’s merciful blessings.

It does involve her not heavily elaborating on the specifics. I can agree there.

I’m not sure I follow. My comment was theorizing how Sylvanas might have thought the Night Elves would react if they took Teldrassil while Malfurion ‘miraculously’ survived. I don’t see how the tendencies of ancient Night Elf Worgen play into that.

I’m not sure there’s much else to discuss because we have reached a similar wall. We are interpreting all these events taken in their full context differently. Malfurion surviving, to me, in no way forces such a drastic alteration in objectives as Sylvanas makes by burning the tree because all the reasoning she lays out at the start of the novella never even mentions killing him being necessary. She emphasizes holding Darnassus hostage and the importance of winning honorably in order to split the Alliance apart. Like I said, she changed the whole rules of the game, on the fly, when she burned that damned tree. Saurfang himself knows it and it’s why he wants to kill her right then and there before he succumbs to being paralyzed by self-doubt and despair.

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Fair enough. The important thing to keep in mind for me is that it really isn’t just Malfurion surviving. Him not dying is insignificant itself (at least in the story). But the nature of his survival being ‘miraculous’ as altering how the different people react. But there definitely aren’t a lot of specifics given.

With a single strategic push, the pressure on the Alliance would cripple them for years, just as long as they could not conjure any miracles on the battlefield.

All that said, I think the in-game story is mostly better than A Good War’s plan (baring one line). And it really makes me question why they decided to give conflicting stories there.

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Because they are really bad writters who have no new ideas

Not so.

He is enraged, but he also directly questions her. He listens to her. Then admits she is right. Again.

He does not just become paralyzed.

He admits she was right. He recognizes it was his plan from the start. He recognizes killing hope as part of the plan that he threw away:

He struggled to form words. Finally, pure hatred made him spit out a condemnation. “You have damned the Horde for a thousand generations. All of us. And for what? For what?”

Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back. When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”

He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike. But she was right.

A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it. The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.

War would still have come. That had been certain the moment Saurfang had led the Horde into Ashenvale. And it would have been what he had feared most: the meat grinder, spending so many lives to achieve so little, ending with a whimper, and thus dooming future generations to a war nobody could win.

Once again, Sylvanas had seen it before he had.

After a chat, he admits to himself that Sylvanas was right. Saurfang recognizes that the wound that will never heal in order to destroy hope was part of the plan to begin with. He recognizes sparing Malfurion went against that plan. And he recognizes the fact that he threw that plan out the window.

I think that does well to explain some of why Sylvanas changed her mind. The goal was to break their spirit into submission, not simply holding the tree. That goal was lost, since Malfurion’s survival would be seen as a miracle by the Night Elves, even if the tree was held by the Horde. Now, the only chance the Horde had was if the Alliance made a stupid mistake. And she had to shake them to their core to get them to make a mistake.

A few pages before she orders the tree burned, the reader is informed that she is already thinking of something to do. But she does not know what to do. It is not like she just flipped and burned the tree out of madness. She was considering what great wound she could cause that would measure up right after she says “Secure the beach.” :

“Secure the beach,” Sylvanas said. “Prepare to invade the tree.”

A wound that cannot heal. Sylvanas needed to think of a new way to inflict one. There was no turning back.

“Why?”

The voice drew Sylvanas’s attention from the tree. It had come from a mortally wounded Sentinel, the very one Sylvanas had felled only minutes ago. She was coughing. Weak. Dying.

“Why? You’ve already won,” the night elf said, struggling to force the words out. “Only innocents remain in the tree.”

That was good to know, if it was true.

Sylvanas knelt next to her. “This is war,” she said.

I think this shows that the Burning of Teldrassil was an on the spot example of a change of plans because of thoughtful consideration.

This passage seems to show the burning of Teldrassil was not the plan from the start, or a sudden emotional reaction, imo. But something Sylvanas came up with while brainstorming what sort of “wound” she could make. Which is more a consideration than an outburst.

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I was wondering when we would have a real hardcore sylvanas did nothing wrong type here.

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Explaining her thought process as written by the author is hardly suggesting she did nothing wrong.

I did avoid this thread earlier, because it seemed like another: “Sylvanas be cray and evil!” circle-wank. But Imerus brought up some good points that got me interested.

I would not say his posts had Horde bias. He just fairly explained details of the story in ways I agreed with.

I will say Sylvanas obviously did something wrong - she toyed with Saurfang and tested him with Malfurion. She should have just lopped off Malfurion’s head immediately, herself. Even she admits that mistake.

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