That only happens if the Horde wins an honorable victory

Amadis-draka · May 30, 2019, 10:29pm

I don’t disagree with you. In fact Sylvanas might have burned Teldrassil all along despite what she told Saurfang, as another internal monologue Sylvanas has in A Good War is the following while the Horde forces are in Astranaar still:

The kaldorei knew they were outnumbered. They knew their homeland was lost. Maybe a few of them knew in their hearts—just as she knew—that Darnassus would one day burn to ashes.

And that’s before the Horde even reaches Darkshore, and well before Malfurion surviving the war starts Sylvanas’ mental spiral.

I just have no idea what Sylvanas’ ulterior motives are, though.

Droité-tanaris · May 30, 2019, 10:54pm

Honestly … I feel like a broken record saying this, but Sylvie’s motivations for this war are still in the dark (as well as her reasons for burning the tree, which may not necessarily coincide). Those arguments she gave to Saurfang to agree to this war aren’t necessarily her own (and even if they are, may not have the same motives). Therefore, without knowing the goals … it is decidedly difficult to judge the methods she uses to get there.

We know she had “true objectives” with this conflict, ones that absolutely required a wound that would never heal to be created. We also know that (according to her implications in A Good War) that she fully intended to destroy the Kaldorei nation (and perhaps people) … which is why she put so much priority on killing the very NE leadership she needed to put pressure on Anduin and fracture the Alliance. It is quite perplexing … especially if you’re a Horde player (since we have no idea what exactly we’re fighting this war for).

anon95961490 · May 30, 2019, 11:01pm

Yeah I agree and said as much in other comments. The war she sold to Saurfang was, obviously, false. We are fighting a different war than the one sold to us. It’s just funny when everyone speaks of honor being stupid and this and that and Sylvies pragmatic genius while conveniently ignoring words from her own mouth about the objectives of the war she gave to us. Thanks to her actions her words have proven to be deceptive.

Droité-tanaris · May 30, 2019, 11:07pm

Funny thing about pragmatism … just like honor, its very subjective. What is pragmatic for one individual, may not be pragmatic for another. And, more importantly, what may be pragmatic for the individual … may not be pragmatic for the group (in fact, it might be outright disastrous for the group). Honor may be wishy-washy in the story atm … but I would still take wishy-washy concepts of that honor over staunch concepts of pragmatism.

Sylvanas Windrunner has always been a character that says and does one thing, and could be thinking something completely different. The reason that her motives remain a secret even now … likely means that the Horde (and I genuinely believe, even the Forsaken) would not approve. It does make me wonder … if Sylvie is using VERY manipulative arguments like “Trust in me, like I trust in you” with Nathanos; I question how much he actually knows about what she’s doing (or why)?

Traditionally … those sort of emotion driving “Trust Exercise” arguments are used to obscure from the horrific truth; by using the past to do so.

Rhuna-lightbringer · May 30, 2019, 11:57pm

My impression is that, yes, Sylvanas is a sociopath whose actions are all self-serving.

The war has to be a win-win for her.

The Horde beats the Alliance, she gets an influx of corpses and dominion over the world.
The Horde loses/stalemates/revolts. But she’s created enough chaos (is a ladder!) to get where she wants to go.

I can feel the Just as planned heading our way.

Frankenfiend-the-scryers · May 30, 2019, 11:59pm

/thread

Sticky this, close the thread. Have a nice day.

Rhuna-lightbringer · May 31, 2019, 2:24am

Alex Afrasiabi:

I’ve heard these discussions on the internet about ‘she’s going off the rails’, but is she? I’ve been writing Sylvanas personally since 2006, and this is pretty much - the Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken - in character. Those were all under Sylvanas’ orders. What we’re seeing now is an escalation of the plans Sylvanas has, clearly, and we’re in the middle of that.

Link: www_eurogamer_net/amp/2018-11-08-world-of-warcraft-and-the-masterplan-for-sylvanas

Ollanu-dalaran · May 31, 2019, 3:26am

You know i find it kind of funny and kind of sad that when you think about it Arthas would have the last laugh. Sylvanas the valiant defender of her people died in mind body and spirit long ago. The current sylvabas would have likely blown silvermoon and the sun well up instead if fighting to the end. It seems the longer she lives the more apprent it is Arthas broke her he won even in unending possable torture he won.

Imerus-moon-guard · May 31, 2019, 4:02am

Why would they?

Because the specifics had to get moved around due to Saurfang sparing Malfurion.

Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back. When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”

Amadis-draka · May 31, 2019, 4:36am

While you and I have already had a large discussion about this, I think I actually was able to summarize that conversation up above:

Veloran-wyrmrest-accord · May 31, 2019, 4:49am

I don’t know, if you take the wedge as being Tyrande, either Teldrassil or Malfurion fulfill all the requirements to drive her over the edge.

Ollanu-dalaran · May 31, 2019, 4:53am

The dtive a wedge or kill hope thing to me seems like a silly plan because no matter what you create something to rally around something to fuel people to true rage. I mean i guess sylvanas expected the might elves to be like the high elves and just give up and die after they lost their home…oh no wait they didnt so yeah cant even seem to compare what happened to her own people and how they reacted to the night elves.

Imerus-moon-guard · May 31, 2019, 5:12am

I can see the argument there. Just don’t think I know enough to agree with it.

Amadis-draka · May 31, 2019, 5:25am

Sylvanas’ wedge was supposed to be Genn, and pressed by the Horde holding Teldrassil, as she explains in A Good War:

“You understand, High Overlord,” Sylvanas said. “Think it through. What happens next?”

“They might try to conquer the Undercity . . . but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs . The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.” Saurfang’s thoughts raced. She’s right. This could work. “And even if the Alliance agrees to retake Darnassus . . . The Gilneans!”

Sylvanas’s eyes disappeared beneath the edge of her hood. “They lost their nation years ago. The Gilneans will be furious if the Alliance acts to help the kaldorei first,” she said. “The boy in Stormwind will have a political crisis on his hands. He is smart, but he is not experienced. What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions? He is not a high king like his father. The respect the others give him is a courtesy, not an obligation. Anduin Wrynn will rapidly become a leader who cannot act. If the Alliance will not march as one, each nation will act in its own interest. Each army will return home to protect their lands from us.”

Tyrande alone doesn’t act as a wedge without Genn betraying the Night Elves, which Genn never would have done any way. Genn in fact subverts Tyrande being a wedge even when she does leave for Darkshore without Anduin’s support by supporting her instead like he said he would in Elegy, in the quest “Shores of Fate”:

And on top of that, Anduin spins everything as it working out in the best interest of the Alliance in the end any way, between the quests “Waning Hope” and “Shores of Fate”:

Maiev Shadowsong says: Your aid is welcome, <name>. At least we can count on you.

Which ultimately it does, as we find out after the Battle of Dazar’alor from Shaw and Nathanos.

TL;DR: Neither killing Malfurion or burning Teldrassil would have made Tyrande into a wedge that would split the Alliance because Genn never would have betrayed the Night Elves.

anon95961490 · May 31, 2019, 5:29am

Good question. It is an inconvenient piece of dialogue for what you are seemingly about to argue

What specifics? These?

We can divide the Alliance only if the war to conquer Darnassus does not unite them against us. That only happens if the Horde wins an honorable victory

Burning the tree immediately makes this a dishonorable victory and unites the Alliance against them. This isn’t moving specifics, it’s changing the entire point of the war sold to Saurfang. It’s changing the entire rules of the game offered to him while putting him in an impossible position. No wonder this old orc has finally come to his senses and is after her head.

Ollanu-dalaran · May 31, 2019, 5:36am

And people will still argue that everything is going according to her plan.

Imerus-moon-guard · May 31, 2019, 5:36am

Doesn’t seem like it to me.

That is one of the specifics, yes. The plan involving an honorable victory and involving holding Teldrassil hostage had to change after Saurfang spared Malfurion.

Because their unity was already ensured by Malfurion’s miraculous survival (per Saurfang and Sylvanas). This was an attempt to recover said wedge by making the Alliance ‘come in pain’.

No, the entire point of the war was to drive a wedge into the Alliance and break it apart. It moved from capturing Teldrassil to burning it down based on the circumstances.

Amadis-draka · May 31, 2019, 5:43am

As we discussed before, there’s a gap in thought between said wedge and Alliance ‘come in pain’. I forget how the old meme goes exactly, but something like:

Burn Teldrassil.
Alliance lashes out at the Horde in desperate war.
???
~~PROFIT!!!~~ Alliance splits apart.

It doesn’t come together.

Imerus-moon-guard · May 31, 2019, 5:47am

And I think I said before, the idea probably being such genocide and horror will lead to division within the Alliance. Like Tyrande’s going off to take Darkshore on her own after Anduin denied her assistance.

Jrake-gnomeregan · May 31, 2019, 5:49am

So, here’s what I need you to understand. " A Good War" and “Elegy” are more than likely to become non-cannon within the next expac or two (or hell, by the end of this one if it keeps on going the way it has been).

I would take anything in those two short stories with the smallest grain of salt, and honestly, ignore them. Those two are about as disposable as they come in terms of lore.

Are they somewhat useful now? Kind of? They already conflict with in game events. Look at the Sylvanas vs Malfurion bit. In game, looked like Malfurion had the upper hand. In the short stories, Sylvanas did. It’s just not consistent and I feel like they’re just going to cause Blizzard more trouble than their worth in the long run.