Speculation, that can easily be argued against.
I don’t think it’s speculative to say “hey, turning someone undead changes their personalities and appearances in the vast majority of cases” unless you’re extraordinarily boneheaded.
It is speculation to say that it splits their souls like Frostmourne did, which is what we were talking about.
This is true. But even if it doesn’t split the soul it could still have other effects, something that’s implied by the fact that cosmic forces such as Light and Void affect undead differently than they do the living.
I’ve literally been championing this idea of a twisted/manipulated soul for almost 2 decades. I’m a bit shocked that you out of all people would insinuate that I’m taking “THIS development” and utilizing it to support my belief. I have believed this for a very long time; I’ve discussed the Curse of Undeath and it effects, components, severity etc etc since the beginning. As I’ve said before, its one my favorite things to discuss out of all the lore.
How long have I been saying that the undead should not be judged for their actions while operating under a curse? You’re only focused on the bad; while I’ve been preaching good, bad, nice, naughty etc etc the whole kit and kaboodle for a number of years.
Yes, I’m gonna interpret the vague parts of lore in support of my belief, just like every other fan of the lore. When the lore is a little foggy/vague I’m gonna lean on what makes sense to me, shoot me.
Some interpretation are supported more strongly than others in this case I feel that there is no denying that the Forsaken are the former citizens of Lordaeron. Their souls are housed in their corpses, how much of their original soul is in there is unknown(irrelevant imo), point is, its there. Part of their soul remembers who they were and if they want to reclaim Lordaeron because it belonged to them in life I’m literally here for it, especially over any of those greedy Stormwind citizens : )
As far as picking and choosing how to apply the curse, there’s one thing for sure, the curse of undeath isn’t a skin disease(thanks for that btw 
), it’s effects are different for each undead. If undead Sally contently continued her work as a tailor and her mental is dang near the same as when she was alive I would arbitrarily interpret that the curse didn’t affect her as much, but if Sally came back and she was making weapons to melt puppies and druid nurseries I would argue that the curse is affecting her a little more.
Nothing in the lore actually says how much each individual undead is affected.
The Forsaken’s free will comes with an asterisk. The curse isn’t a skin diseases : )
I can elaborate if you like but I think you already know what I’m gonna say.
Edit:
Ainhin, I want to make sure I’m not mixing you up with another of my favorite posters. I know Ainhin is legendary but did you post on a BE too? Vyrn or something the other?
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Vyrin.
Now there’s a name I haven’t seen in years.
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Both Ainhin and Vyrin are very respectful posters, even though our views on our favorite parts of the lore are polar opposite. I could see me getting along with them both IRL just fine. Sometimes posters try to get too personal and lose themselves in this make believe fantasy pretend story stuff.
I remember you too Water : )
You revealed some pretty awesome stuff about yourself!!
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Haha, I dunno. Vyrin could get pretty heated on… certain topics.
And HA! Nice to see that you remember me. 
I’m always pleasantly surprised when somebody remembers me. I haven’t really posted in the Story Forum since early MoP.
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You don’t stay true to the lore by rewriting what another author said the character’s motivations were.
When she was being written in Cata thru WoD, we had no idea the Jailer was involved. There wasn’t even a hint. We reasonable presumed that when she was trying to really be a leader for the Forsaken, that she really was genuine in that pursuit. When she was trying to be a fitting Warchief in Legion, we still had no hint of the Jailer. We still had a reason to believe her.
The Jailer just proved that since Icecrown, it’s just been a lie. Her motivations have been secret, from us and everyone, and everything we thought we understood about what she was doing was a cover for the Jailer.
Now that we know Sylvanas’ soul has been split, I don’t understand what comes next. If being reunited with her soul is going to result in such a substantial change to her character, then how can we be certain we ever knew this character at all?
If that was a fragment from the moment she died to Frostmourne, then she just became a different character than she ever was because we’ve ever seen, and not the Forsaken leader that was so beloved.
If that was a fragment from when she tried to off herself in Icecrown (just playing with ideas here), then Sylvanas is a different character after than than she was between Vanilla and Wrath.
Who is this beloved Sylvanas? The character that died in Quel’thalas? The character she was before she met the Jailer? The character that was lying to us the whole time? The cloaked and secret character with an agenda beyond understanding because nothing in the game gave even a shred of evidence to what her plans were? This new Sylvanas?
I don’t understand this character anymore.
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I’ve never seen him personally attack posters tho.
Rewriting or developing further/fleshing out, because there is a difference?
For me its win-win; I love the Ranger General and I love the Banshee Queen. The Ranger General has a fraction of the lore that the Banshee Queen have, but I’ve always hoped and dreamed that one day Ranger General would get her clean death.
I feel that they are almost one in the same except one is influenced by dark magic and the other is not ie I don’t think the Banshee Queen reaching out wanting to caress Blightcaller was influenced by dark magic; I think that was the Ranger General in her. I think there’s a portion of all undead that is still there, its just overtaken/influenced by necromancy and such.
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Neither. It’s not a rewrite because nothing was changed but the motivations and reasons. It’s not a fleshing something out because it’s replacing something we thought we understood with something we couldn’t possibly have known.
Revealing that the Draenei used to play Jed’in on Argus is fleshing them out as a race because it gave us more details about their culture and leisure, but nothing was lost by learning that. It fills in gaps, gives us a more complete picture of who they are.
If Metzen was writing Sylvanas during the Cata-era of the game to be a genuine leader to the Forsaken and give them purpose on Azeroth, but Danuser later changes our understanding of the character to have been serving the Jailer the whole time, that’s not fleshing out, that’s just replacement.
That’s great, except that for me it’s a loss. I liked the character for her actions and her motivations. If having her soul reunited meant that she was not a complete individual while doing everything from Warcraft III until the present, that means we have to change our understanding of the last 17 years, and by definition, means we can’t look at any of that on its own anymore when considering who the character is and how to understand those events that involve her.
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You just said it was rewriting. I was just checking to see if that’s what you meant.
TBH after Edge of Night we had no idea what her true motivation were, until now, before Edge of Night her motivation was to kill Arthas. Cdev has literally strung us along since EoN a rewrite for motivation didn’t change because she didn’t have one.
I remember the countless conversations about her motivation after EoN I concluded that she was just Xena the Warrior Princes on crack, because if she knew she was on a one way trip to WoW Hell why would the first thing you decide to do upon resurrection is go to War?
Why not just possess a random undead or human and unlive out the rest of you life? Again, her true motivations have been non existent until SL. I don’t see the rewrite.
Trust me, this is not to say that there isn’t one. If you can show me something that says “These are Sylvanas True motivations” I could easily change my tune. If not than I’m gonna have to stick with what cdev says.
Then I’ll clarify: Metzen wrote her in Cataclysm with presented motivations. Danuser redefined those motivations by revealing she had an ulterior motive.
I’m not talking about CDev as a collective amalgamation, I’m talking about individual writers. Metzen wrote her in Cataclysm, Kosak wrote her in Edge of Night, Danuser has been writing her since Legion. Just because they’re working as a team does not mean the vision of it in 2014 is the same as the vision it has now seven years later.
We know that their miscommunication is the reason why Garrosh ended up as the antagonist in MOP. It’s very charitable to presume that the team who had their signals crossed are also a team that has been on the exact same page with Sylvanas for 17 years. I guess those things could be true, but that’s a pretty big suspension of disbelief for me.
We have what the character said, and ultimately, that’s all we had. What we also didn’t have as any reason to believe she was lying. There has not been a single hint of the Jailer or any ulterior motives before Legion-- not one.
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The same thing happened to the Knights of the Ebon Blade, but I don’t see them going on a nihilistic rampage - quite the opposite actually.
I think this Batman quote from “The Killing Joke” comic can apply to and about Sylvanas; “So maybe ordinary people don’t always crack. Maybe there isn’t any need to crawl under a rock with all the other slimy things when trouble hits… maybe it was just you, all the time.”
Thats so not right, he was planned for this path before, the miscommuniaction lead to stonetalon, which was honorable to all other parts of the world where he performed and be the exact opposite, a ruthless warmonger.
However, he was already planned in Cata as the one who would end up being the evil one, they just didn’t know which way they were going to go about it, but it was already set that he would be.
Her motivation was to kill Arthas and die, no? Wasn’t that under Dave Kosak’s rule and not Steve?
She came back running and gunning in Cata; with no true motivation. Back then, it made zero sense for her to go to war when she came back from the Maw. I was at a lost.
Is inserting Zovaal a rewrite? I’m genuinely asking.
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What I remember is CDev conceding that there was miscommunication on the team about Garrosh, and my point is that I doubt they’re in such harmony after the many changes they’ve had over the years to be on a consistent throughline with Sylvanas.
Yes, and then Arthas died. She was given a new motivation that was oriented toward the Forsaken and carving out a place in Azeroth for people by expanding their territories in Lordaeron through Silverpine Forest and Arathi.
Her monologue in Silverpine forest explains her motivation.
Just Zovaal himself? No more of one than the Thunder King. A new big bad that has some history we get to explore once we’re in the realm relevant to him. The Thunder King left his mark on Pandaria. Zovaal left his mark in the Shadowlands.
Tying him to Sylvanas reframed her entire motivation since Cata. That’s what has been damaging to the character.
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I somewhat agree with you; I can definitely see how you came to this conclusion and there’s some empty space to say the least. BUT(lol), this was AFTER EoN(Dave), which expressed the Forsaken’s only meaning in life was to protect Sylvanas from the Maw. Nothing really changed and how she viewed them, nothing changed in this motivation. Remember she cursed them, which was part of my brief anti-Sylvanas career. So in the end her motivation was to stay out of the Maw but she decided to wage war instead possessing a body and hiding out, which kinda makes sense with the new lore about Zovaal.
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Based only on the line about the “bulwark against the infinite”?
I get why that could be the interpretation, but it’s not the one I came with or is the one I thought was most reasonable.
I didn’t come out of Edge of Night with the interpretation that this was a fate only for Sylvanas, but that she realized this is the fate of everyone who is Forsaken, and having endured a glimpse of it herself would not let them callously be tossed away by the likes of Garrosh.
The alternative is, what? She wanted to die and leave the Forsaken to language, changing her mind only when she realized how awful it was, and then made a pact with the Val’kyr and utilize the Forsaken as a buffer just to keep her out of it?
That’s an uncharitable read of the Forsaken as a ‘bulwark’ of the infinite, and I’m not sure why anyone would be a fan of that character. My read of the story was that Sylvanas needed her people as much as they needed her, and was embracing her role as their protector and advocate. That’s a character worthy of admiration.
I guess my interpretation ended up being wrong, but I don’t think it’s because where she ended up now is where they meant to take her then. Just because they can claim this was setting up for the Jailer reveal doesn’t mean it’s convincing.
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This is true; but I viewed their relationship as quid pro quo. It was impossible to view Sylvanas as a true protector for her people after EoN
I viewed their relationship as the Forsaken needed Sylvanas to build their nation and Sylvanas needed the Forsaken as a bulwark. Everybody wins until the wheels fall off.
Anyway nice discussing this with you, I’m out. Look to pick this up later.
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