Thank You Blizzard for Acknowledging the M+ Leaver Problem

[Akston-area-52]

Seeing how no one can suggest a single fix that wouldnt be horribly abused and make things worse, its not an easy fix. Having something on the radar is better than not.

[Gallows-korialstrasz]

The fix to people who bail on a key is do not pug keys. There is an entire discord community of people who run keys. Low keys, high keys. Best part is bailing mid key will gain you a reputation and you won’t get good groups anymore.

[Akston-area-52]

Oh I agree in that regard. Join a community, be social, make friends is a great fix for the situation.

[Kennie-malganis]

@Tuulennbeak-earthfury

will become more accessible and lower in toxicity

If there’s a penalty for leaving then groups become less accessible.

[Tzunomi-sargeras]

So now instead of leaving the key they will just log out.

People get mad at leaves but never ask themselves why did this person leave?

[Theodas-hyjal]

@Tuulennbeak-earthfury

I am looking forward to see how this issue gets addressed! Hopefully this means M+ will become more accessible and lower in toxicity

Oh, boy. I can’t wait to be held hostage in bad key runs.

[Elliorra-proudmoore (Elliorra)]

I can’t think of any “solution” that wouldn’t just make the problem worse.

[Sabledraco-illidan]

I think the answer to this lies in how keys are listed and it depends on who leaves.

Keyholder (KH) Leave Penalties

• If the KH leaves, then the current system stands (key is depleted, no penalty for them or anyone else)

Non Keyholder Leave Penalties

• If a non-KH leaves, they will have no penalty if the key was listed as “Beat timer” and there were already 4 or more deaths (of different players) or if they reach boss #2 with less than a certain percentage left on the clock (system determined it would not have been timed correctly); the key should also deplete to the next lowest level

• If a non-KH leaves a key that was listed as “Completion” - they are penalized with a deserter debuff and the key STOPS, everyone is ported out and the KH can form another group and try again (key is not depleted so as to not screw the KH)

The KH should still retain the right to lower the keys themselves …etc.

Just spitballing here.

[Rapidstrike-malganis]

@Sabledraco-illidan

If a non-KH leaves, they will have no penalty if the key was listed as “Beat timer” and there were already 4 or more deaths (of different players) or if they reach boss #2 with less than a certain percentage left on the clock (system determined it would not have been timed correctly); the key should also deplete to the next lowest level

I mean, I agree with the points.

The issue is It would be very hard to monitor this when you have thousands of pug groups to manage…

Also, a majority of players already know when a key is about to fail.

When you do that first big pull in FH and you got 6 deaths and the only reason we downed it was because we spawn right there?

Yea, bork’d key.

@Sabledraco-illidan

If a non-KH leaves a key that was listed as “Completion” - they are penalized with a deserter debuff and the key STOPS, everyone is ported out and the KH can form another group and try again (key is not depleted so as to not screw the KH)

This kind of falls with the statement above. Who is going to monitor thousands of pug groups?

[Sabledraco-illidan]

I’m saying build the penalty system with the group finder tool as your base.

If you use the PGF, you agree to those terms. If you’re not listing keys and you’re doing them in guild groups–obviously the system we have already would stand.

[Akston-area-52]

@Sabledraco-illidan

If a non-KH leaves, they will have no penalty if the key was listed as “Beat timer” and there were already 4 or more deaths (of different players) or if they reach boss #2 with less than a certain percentage left on the clock (system determined it would not have been timed correctly); the key should also deplete to the next lowest level

So I just have to wipe the group enough to where I can leave? Not too difficult. Sounds like it just makes it worse for everyone else, though.

@Sabledraco-illidan

If a non-KH leaves a key that was listed as “Completion” - they are penalized with a deserter debuff and the key STOPS, everyone is ported out and the KH can form another group and try again (key is not depleted so as to not screw the KH)

So I just have to wipe the group enough that someone else gets fed up and leaves first?

Because, either way, I can constantly wipe the group without it being a punishable offense.

[Rapidstrike-malganis]

@Sabledraco-illidan

I’m saying build the penalty system with the group finder tool as your base.

So you want there to be a queue system for keys between 1 and 35?

I really doubt they are going to make a queue system for it lol

[Sabledraco-illidan]

You missed the part where I said the deaths had to be different players. You an’t just kill youself over and over again to evade the debuff. I’m also not proposing queues.

And no, I’m saying bulid the penalty system only for people who use the PGF to fill their keys. If you list the key, you’re pugging and you would agree to rules in place to pug to try and make a better system for everyone.

If a key is listed as Beat Timer, the penalty for leaving should be relatively generous and/or non-existent.
If a key is listed as Completion; there is an expectation that you agree that it probably won’t get timed and it wont be played perfectly, but since the KH has a real penalty for you leaving, the penalty should not only be borne BY THEM.

[Akston-area-52]

@Sabledraco-illidan

You missed the part where I said the deaths had to be different players. You an’t just kill youself over and over again to evade the debuff.

No I didn’t. I can do a full group wipe, pretty regularly without it being a punishable offense.

[Sabledraco-illidan]

Then they could add a system where if you left a key belonging to a KH, you’d never see their listed keys again and they’d never see you waiting in the queue either. That should stop you from doing that over and over again.

[Akston-area-52]

No i mean while in the group.

If I cant leave until X deaths but the key is busted to me? Ok. I can now just wipe the entire group and cost them time and repair gold.

I cant be the first one to leave? Ok. I will make someone else fed up enough to leave first.

I am saying the over all experience will be worse for people than if someone just dropped.

[Pyri-shadowsong]

i like how every “solution” to this “problem” consists of adding a huge list of complex rules and exceptions and sub-rules and punishments

[Bufurbur-frostmourne]

Should have “leave” thresholds, Players could agree to join and be able to leave under agreed conditions.

For example if a certian amount of deaths occur or a time limit is reached.

All set up and agreed apon before the run commences.

[Quivermethis-rexxar]

Highly unlikely as this doesn’t happen in regular lfg.

What is more likely is getting a deserter debuff for leaving a key in progress.

[Akston-area-52]

@Sabledraco-illidan

Like I said, I’m spitballing, it’s not a perfect system but the person holding the key getting porked over by someone who just leaves isn’t really fair.

At the very least if a non-keyholder leaves a group; the key shouldn’t deplete.

I still think that there should be a penalty for people who leave keys that are listed as Completion. I’m less picky about people who leave “Beat Timer” groups if it’s just a fail.

I get that. I am just saying that 100% of all ideas I have seen suggested allow the person that would have left to grief the group in a way that cant be punished, making the experience 100x worse.

Thats the kicker.

Its extremely easy to make the group 100x worse while not doing something actionable. A person who is forced to stay in a group will end up doing this.