I saw it. To say that the lich queen’s move wasn’t a tactical one to use The Alliance forces as a buffer to cover her own retreat doesn’t give her the credit she deserves. It was cold, it was calculating, and we can debate the merits and morality of it…but it maximized her force’s chances of survival.
However, it killed any chance of peace with her allies.
In that sense, she won that battle, but lost the war.
well sorry to inform you. might want to watch again. If you did saw you see everyone was dying. There were more coming. anyone with a lick of common sense knows to get hell out of dodge. As they left you see that massive army following them. if stayed and died. guess were they going next. no way could alliance handle two armies. alliance was saved and horde by a good call.
here I found video. look at what the wolf guys says. look at how bad horde beaten. They new that only option was to leave.
Do you see me arguing to stay and fight anywhere in my post?*
No.
The most I have ever argued for was a coordinated withdrawal.
I have always argued that the lich queen’s move was a calculated one that used The Alliance forces as a buffer to:
A) distract the legion so they could escape easier
B) Long term, leave The Alliance in a more weakened position with potentially most, or all of it’s leadership wiped out at the broken shore.
As I said, credit where it’s due. If varian hadn’t killed the reaver, we’d all be under the lich queen’s boot right now.
*Granted, I do now advocate for “lok tar ogar” to be changed to “lok tar ohcraprunawaybeforeitgetsus!” but that’s about it…and mock them for their cowardice that day because it’s fun.
In no way can you do this in a real battle. sorry it don’t work that way. You have one choice and hair to make it.
let me ask a question. ever served in military? ever command troops? every been in combat while commanding troops? I have. that is what I based on. it called experience.
I say grow up. either you a kid or adult don’t matter’s. Stop acting like one.
No, you haven’t.
Because anyone who’s led troops into battle knows that sometimes, those troops die. And sometimes, as a commander, you have to command them to.
Desertion in the face of the enemy during a time of war is a capital offense in every military on the planet.
When you sign up to be a soldier you and your men put something else before themselves. Any commander who buggered out during a coordinated mission without contacting their allies or working to ensure the success of the mission over the preservation of their own lives would be cashiered, court martialed, and hung.
Yes you can. It’s the difference between a well trained, disciplined and cohesive force and one that lacks any of those qualities.
Sure, stuff goes sideways, but there’s contingencies.
People aren’t just out there running around with no support or planning, or coordination. Especially in a joint military operation between two nations who are at best currently under a tenuous truce. That nonsense gets people killed and wars started…between allied powers.
I’d hate to think in that situation like that, someone, especially a commanding officer, would cut and run and leave their subordinates to die. It happens, but the noncoms have choice words for people like that.
Spot on. I was going to break it up into two posts, but yours was better written than mine was going to be.
: D
IF we end up killing Sylvanas (and I hope we do), then yea, that will count as payback myself and I think most everyone would be happy with. But if you’re talking about Rastakhan. Who care? Alliance killing him is like if the Horde killed Lady Katherine. Definitely not worth the loss of Teldrassil.
here if you say so. I no the code. atricle 90. look at what i underline. I have made those calls and been backed by superiors. I can say you have no experience in military.
Second key point. she was order to save the horde. so. now what you got.
(iii) Relationship to military duty . The order must relate to military duty, which includes all activities reasonably necessary to accomplish a military mission, or safeguard or promote the morale, discipline, and usefulness of members of a command and directly connected with the maintenance of good order in the service. The order may not, without such a valid military purpose, interfere with private rights or personal affairs. However, the dictates of a person’s conscience, religion, or personal philosophy cannot justify or excuse the disobedience of an otherwise lawful order. Disobedience of an order which has for its sole object the attainment of some private end, or which is given for the sole purpose of increasing the penalty for an offense which it is expected the accused may commit, is not punishable under this article.(iv) Relationship to statutory or constitutional rights . The order must not conflict with the statutory or constitutional rights of the person receiving the order.
Not sure what exactly you think is relevant there. Her order was designed for self preservation, not preservation of the mission.
watch video. troll said to save horde. She did what was order.
Beside people who never seen actually combat saying things that can not be reasonable done. In movies yes. not in real life. Big deference. there a reason why its called judgment call and reason why it has over sight. In past general used to use military men like candy. they die to make them look good. It got changed a little over years. Not a whole lot. But every little counts. It still bad. if you do something against order. better dang sure you got ducks up. From looks of it she did all that her war chief asked.
Hold up. Are you saying that in the entirety of human history, that a coordinated withdrawal has never, EVER, been accomplished?
That such a feat is only the purview of hollywood writers and other fictional settings?
Washington’s retreat from New York comes to mind, and there are others…
no. I am saying that a. they did not have advance communication to inform alliance. B. there was not enough time to do that. C. yes it has happen if there is enough time or a way to do it. some times there not. casein point. if you can get together and tell someone in 45 seconds that the need to leave and come back. the it could happen. sense they were dying in droves. Thrallw as down, war chief down and troops were not holding line at all. with more to come. how is a coordinated attack or withdraw going to happen?
Troll said to save Horde. Not save the task force she was leading on that mission. Her military objective was to cover the skies. Had she performed that objective, the Skyfire would not have been crippled before the attack began. It could have evacuated troops or covered a more orderly retreat. Most of the Horde in that force (which was relatively small) would have perished, but the mission and the pact with the Alliance would have held. In so doing, Alliance leaders, especially Genn Greymane, would have gained respect for her, which would have done more to help ensure the Horde’s survivability.
And a ton of REMFs are great at hiding behind lawyers and platitudes while never having any idea of the realities of combat.
Also, since Zul’jin was critically wounded and delusional, even if he HAD been giving military orders, he should have been relieved of command.
In response to:
ok. so you saying a massive army heading your way. troops are dying with only archers left. Last time I check bows and arrows can not pierce the hull of a star ship. I did not see them use magic. I did see thrall being attack by them and being taken down. Could of hold the line. ok. I give up. you guys years of combat experience. It sure would of worked. ![:tired_face:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/tired_face.png?v=6" ":tired_face:")
Here key words
which includes all activities reasonably necessary to accomplish a military mission,
BTW at least try and watch the video. Look at how many in sky, on the ground and around the horde. It be more like custard last stand than anything else. With last edit im done. I can not see why I am trying to show you that it was a good call. You see it one way and I see anther way. If she stayed. they been over run. then alliance would of been overrun. then legion would of won. as no troops to stop them.
No, arrows couldn’t take down starships. That wasn’t their job. They could take down the twenty or so gargoyles that wound up crippling the Skyfire. Leaving the Skyfire, and its heavy artillery, to take out the larger threats. That’s the whole purpose of a coordinated assault. Different units with different strengths reinforce and cover each other.
Would it have worked? Nope, probably not. They were massively outnumbered and outgunned in any event, and the entire assault was pretty much an exercise in folly. Or, more accurately, in inexperience.
I really do wonder if Tyrande and Malfurion tried to dissuade Sylvanas and Varian from a direct assault, because their experience against the Legion should have told them that such a forward assault would have ended in failure, as the Legion had a crippling advantage in numbers.
Nevertheless, while the mission may have been doomed to fail from the beginning, the military realities of the situation are that Sylvanas deserted her post, abandoned her allies, and directly contributed to an increase in casualties, massive political fallout, and an utter failure to salvage any strategic value from the mission. Her actions turned the mission into an utter rout.
Well, the devs are from California. That seems to be a rather popular sentiment out there.
This. There needs to be consequences for what happened. Of course they won’t do that. The devs will never have something go against the Horde. In fact I would wager that not only do the Horde not face any penalty whatsoever for what they did to the NE’s that by the end of BFA the Alliance characters will be cheering them for saving the world. “Azeroth is Free”
Which leader did we kill of yours? Oh right. We didn’t.
You won’t get to kill Sylvanas (if she dies, its cinematic death)