It was agility greens actually and the sole reason why they nerfed dodge back in the day
You did originally.
See now you’re just making me doubt everything you’re saying. Magtheridon wasn’t some ultra punishing physical boss to Tank, but there’s enough disruption on that fight that healing can be spotty. A Shaman in full S1 has like 40% of the EH of a Warrior, that is they have that much less room for incoming burst, which Mag is more than capable of dishing out.
LOL no.
They can’t prevent Shear and 60% reduction in an already meager health pool means he taps them down to death. Druids struggle with this despite our insane EH.
Folks said similar things about Vanilla, largely dismissing any challenges as circumvented by “good play” and consumable/wbuff usage. The reality is that a Shaman couldn’t even step up to the plate in BWL, let alone anything beyond that content.
TBC is a different animal. Bosses aren’t hitting us for 15% or less of our health pools at a time with special attacks that hit us for 60%+ like in Vanilla. Instead we get bosses who consistently chunk our health by 25%-40% per hit, no crush, no crit, and whose specials do about as much, if not a bit more. The result is rather severe steady damage that you can’t just outplay. Warriors stepping up to Morogrim Tidewalker for the first time can handily explain how quickly they got dropped from a melee/tidal/cleave combo.
You just can’t willpower your way through incoming damage that flattens your health bar and Healers can’t out heal gib deaths.
You’re not using mana on much and having it available is better than not, plus you don’t have many other options for points. Elemental Devastation is particularly worthless because all that Gladiator gear has no Spell Crit or Intellect. You’d be literally relying upon baseline spell crit (and hit) rates and whatever buffs you might have available to you, which is paltry at best.
It is a significant increase to that skill alone sure, but when that isn’t the majority of your threat overall, it is like snagging 5 points just to improve Seal of Vengeance and only Seal of Vengeance by roughly that amount. I’m not arguing the points do good work, but the overall kit has to be considered.
Plus, like I said, you’ll be rocking almost no spell crit gear, so the slightly increased chance of getting an already low chance spell crit isn’t doing much work for you at all.
Druids were also rocking insane Avoidance levels with Agility stacking and any Warrior or Paladin that wanted to avoid more than get hit could also do so. They nerfed it hard because the reality of scaling returns was very apparent. Going from 10% to 12% total avoidance was hardly anything, going from 50% to 52% was huge.
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I hit 70 along with 2 other DPS first in our guild (and largely the server) and we did a lot of normal runs with them along with them having mostly quested Hellfire.
But regardless of that, you’re claiming that Heroic TBC 5-mans will be so hard that a sub-par class that at least gets mail gear with some defensive talents won’t be able to survive when people said similar stuff about Naxx difficulty weeding out the scrubs when it’s getting cleared so trivially easily, and I, a Warlock, have tanked several raid bosses including the entirety of ZG.
No. No I didn’t. Read my 2nd point.
So the shaman was in S3… what do you think his healers were in? (I had t6)
I’m not saying a shaman in S1 could tank Mag well at all. They could, it wouldn’t be efficient in the least bit. A shaman could tank heroics and OT in Kara or potentially MT Kara too, but in a more efficient sense. I believe Gruuls needs a few tanks for the first encounter too.
So you want to take that bet then?
But you do. I put them in better places then 15% to an already weak spell.
You don’t understand shaman tanking at all pal. You still cast shocks ON COOLDOWN. You’ll have some spell crit in which cases those crits proc buffs to your main threat gen (physical damage). The baseline threat from the shocks paired with uptime on your melee crit % and damage is a crucial point in threat gen.
…none of these things have anything to do with one another.
- Mail gear is pathetic compared to Plate in terms of raw mitigation.
- Shaman get zero damage reduction talents for physical damage.
- Shaman get zero Stamina/Health scaling talents
- Shaman get zero gear itemized to actually facilitate Tanking
As a Warlock you actually can’t say the same because you can access better mitigation options and have superior Stamina. I’d argue quicker for Warlock shenanigans than Shaman shenanigans, but in either case there are deficiencies to the extreme.
Naxx did weed out a lot of scrubs. With or without wbuffs, you still have Tanks that cannot survive Patchwerk’s Hateful Strikes. There are no successful off-the-wall attempts to clear Naxxramas in the slightest. The highest content any Shaman has even attempted to “tank” in is a single Russian guild leader who forced his raid team to funnel him loot so they could let him pick up adds on Sartura and scrape him off the floor on Ouro while the real tanks did the work.
Finally, Tanking in ZG isn’t an accomplishment of any kind. The mobs in there don’t hit much harder than 5man entities beyond a few specific NPCs. Further, no one cares if you can do content that is several tiers BELOW your gear level. A duo of players recently did an excruciatingly long 2-man kill of Onyxia, not because “oh boy raiding is easy!!” but because “holy crap Onyxia is an absolute joke.”
/facepalm
Yes, you did, in your now deleted post where you had points in Guardian Totems and Improved Weapon Totems. The latter is totally acceptable to drop since you need all the help you can get otherwise but the former is just flatly pointless.
Doesn’t matter when he goes splat when Mag melees and cleaves at the same time.
No, they’d eat dirt and one of the real Tanks would have to pick him up.
If you’re iffy about a Shaman MTing Karazhan, why on earth would you think they could stand up to Gruul or Mag? Karazhan is lower ilvl and lighter hitting bosses with fewer Healers to prop you up.
You want to bet your stimulus check on some idiot attempting to stand up to Illidan while having 6-7k health every time Shear lands? Good luck with that nonsense.
3 points to improve a passive source of damage that also happens to have synergy with S1/S2 gloves vs 3 points in a talent you will rarely see ever go off? Pretty easy trade off.
You can hack the game and cast Frost Shock every 1.5 sec and it won’t matter because you don’t have any gear to actually let you LAND the spells consistently, let alone CRITICALLY HIT. Your shocks are all on the spell hit table and the “tank” gear you’ll be cobbling together has NONE, and since spells are on a 2-roll system, whatever meager Spell Crit you actually have will be lessened even more thanks to that lack of Spell Hit.
https://seventyupgrades.com/set/5u4wnp64GPk4cj6FsB4itz
A Shaman in Phase 1 available EH gear is going to have 4.44% Spell Crit before buffs, and absolutely no Spell Hit unless they’re a Draenei. So that’s an 83% chance to even land your Frost Shock, with only 4.44% of those spells that land being Criticals.
So you’ll need an average of ~27 spell casts to land a critical hit, or in terms of Frost Shock’s CD, 135 sec. In other words, your Elemental Devastation uptime will be approximately 7.4%. Which means you aimed three talent points in order to get an average increase of 0.666% Physical Critical Strike Chance, or roughly 14.7 Crit Rating, or less than 5 Crit Rating per talent point.
That’s not a good use of your talents at all.
That was the original posters link. I updated it with mine…
We did it so keep it up with whatever this is.
You again don’t understand the importance of shocks in a shamans tanking rotation yet, highly overestimate a spell that’s underpowered.
So an important thing to note is you can gear some spell crit/dmg as you should. Rings are a great place to start.
I think you also forget a strength of shaman tanking is the SHOCKS! It’s a range threat generating spell… as well as reverberation also helps with tab targeting.
Please do some research before posting.
Still won’t take my bet but continue to rant about something you clearly know nothing about.
Scared little boy.
I never said Shamans would be good, I said the only useful think you can do when compared to another tank is hold threat. I also said you’d need to be overgeared. You’re looking at things from an extreme perspective of having starter gear, just entering Heroics, and having some horrible gear set.
You also think that Patchwerk’s hateful strike has anything to do with scrubbery and not just simple HP values. Patchwerk is an extremely gear-checky fight not a mechanic-heavy fight. People are doing actual mechanics pretty easily because they’re not actually very hard in Naxx, but they were remembering as some enormously difficult thing to get down because people remember everything as being harder than it actually was because people were just overall worse back then. The top guilds back in the day were a joke compared to what we’re seeing now. The same will be true for TBC.
Are there going to be Shamans tanking Heroics all over? No. But a few people will choose to do it for the fun and challenge because regular tanks are going to be super easy.
You say nobody cares about doing stuff below your gear level, but nobody cares what you even have to say. You’re not giving a realistic picture of things, you’re just being negative and naysaying when the person asked for opinions on the best setup to do what he wanted to do in some fashion. I gave a more realistic version, you’re just trying to be elitist and silly.
Dual Wield tanking isnt a thing for warriors in TBC.
It most definitely isnt a think for shaman “tanking” either.
In other words, when they vastly overgear the content and its no longer relevant.
A once every 5 sec spell with a high chance of failure with no SP support isn’t as effective as you’re fluffing it. Seriously, a Tank-centric Shaman is going to have very little SP without having to sacrifice a great deal of Stamina/Armor/Avoidance to maybe earn 50-60 more SP they commit hard in their jewelry for it.
I have, which is why these responses are laughable nonsense. You can’t gear for Spell Crit/Dmg without dropping tons of defensive stats and melee stats. If you go for the Elemental Gladiator gear, you have nothing supporting your already anemic melee attacks and you still lack Spell Hit.
And what is this stupidity about ranged threat and tab targeting? When you pull a pack of mobs, range isn’t the issue as they come right to you. If they have casters, one anemic shock every 5 sec isn’t going to hold off DPS, and you’ll want them in melee range anyway for AoE. You don’t understand anything about Tanking do you?
I don’t make contracts with people I don’t trust.
I’m looking at things in perspective. A Shaman that is “overgeared” in terms of ilvl is actually still behind the Tanks that are doing the content when appropriate. If that isn’t eye-opening for you I don’t know what is.
It is illustrative of the point you and others keep missing: there is no skill in surviving burst damage, you either have the stats to eat the damage or you don’t. Shaman don’t have the stats to eat the damage. The end.
Oh shove off with this nonsense. You want to go suicide-by-stupidity in Phase 5 in Heroic Underbog then by all means, go do it. But I’m sick of the wounded underdog nonsense that acts like people are conspiring against the poor Shaman just trying to have fun. You want to screw around, have at it, but it is nothing more than that, screwing around. No one is being elitist when they say that Shaman aren’t Tanks, that is a statement of fact.
Going into old content with gear well beyond that content to halfassedly slog through it isn’t Tanking, and no amount of sunny disposition and go-get-em attitude is going to change that.
In this case, vastly overgear means lvl80 using S5 or beyond gear.
That’s exactly what you’re doing and you’re getting sensitive because you got called out. Nobody is pretending Shamans are some underappreciated class that could only tank like the rest if people just gave them a chance like some underdog hero in a movie, that’s a strawman argument you’re trying to slap down. If you truly believe “have at it” then why are you even still responding
Prove me wrong and just stop, because you’re not being productive to the point of this thread. Something tells me you’ll just keep on posting, probably having seen your posts in other threads with the same toxic attitude.
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No, I’m not. Calling Shaman “not Tanks” isn’t elitism, it is calling a spade a spade. A Rogue with bandages and a healthstone isn’t a Healer. A Druid in caster form swinging a dagger and only doing that isn’t a DPS. A Shaman slapping on a shield and getting smashed into the ground isn’t a Tank.
So you haven’t read this thread at all then?
Just stop.
Because people push the idea of Shaman Tanks not as a dumb novelty, but as a viable alternative, in this thread, and unknowing players get the false idea that if they just work hard enough and gather enough good and kind hearted players then they too can Tank… just like everyone else.
Caperfin literally runs a small Discord server that dedicates itself to this exact cause and has argued for this precise thing, so no, this isn’t a strawman in the slightest.
Don’t step into something like this and act like you have the moral upper hand.
That’s not even a remotely apt comparison.
I have. You’re putting your own extreme narrative into people’s mouths.
Yep, you’re here for the public service you’re doing, like many people beyond the few random people who participated are going to see this. Get over yourself.
Let’s just do a quick ridiculous rundown here to show how inane Shaman trying to “tank” will be shall we?
Phase 1 Shaman, rocking maximum EH gear looks like this:
https://seventyupgrades.com/set/dQqMKeSN826MW5DbjPFNYP
Effective Health: 28,496
Lvl70 Warrior using only Tier 1 gear:
https://seventyupgrades.com/set/kpnLpnXrpkrMx6bMLyxHNu
Effective Health: 18,989
Lvl70 Warrior using only Tier 2 gear:
https://seventyupgrades.com/set/hPkkpbP63G7nmwatqEYS1w
Effective Health: 21,291
Lvl70 Warrior using only Tier 3 gear:
https://seventyupgrades.com/set/pL3CkiYoJRQSjC5nqR2WU8
Effective Health: 24,626
So to recap, a Shaman, wearing the best gear they can get at the end of the P1 can only barely edge out a Warrior wearing only lvl60 gear.
/headdesk
Or I’m just quoting people and you’re refusing to read.
Bad information is bad information. Don’t spread it.
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Have fun with your ego trip.
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So you still don’t want to take that bet?
Keep chirping away and avoiding putting money where you mouth is small man.
You don’t understand what a high threat generating spell does do you? Regardless of its damage it still generates a HIGH amount of threat… it also hits pretty well considering it is buffed by your AP from another talent…
You CLEARLY don’t understand Shaman. Stick to catboi form.
Thats why I said start with the rings. Do you think if you don’t have rings you can’t tank? Does changing rings from mitigation to threat gen = a ton to you? You’re seriously slow man.
Mobs teleport now? When did this happen? You can’t build threat while they’re running to you? Wish I had a range spell that generated threat…
Healers or other range dps NEVER pull threat either. Thank God that whenever you pull a pack they all come to you no matter the reason…
No you chirp. And chirp. But nothing you says has any value.
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I don’t make deals with people I don’t trust, and I certainly don’t make agreements subject to the statute of frauds.
The threat from Frost Shock is simply double the damage it deals. If it deals anemic damage, it deals anemic threat. Unlike Shaman, a Druid gets loads of Strength, Agility, Critical Strike Rating, Hit Rating, Haste Rating, Armor Penetration, and Attack Power to pour more and more damage into Swipe, Maul, and Mangle. All of these abilities do additional threat based upon their damage, and Dire Bear Form adds even more threat on top of that based upon the damage dealt.
Shaman have Frost Shock and Rockbiter Weapon-empowered autoattacks for anything that does threat beyond base damage.
For a Shaman already lacking substantial amounts of Stamina/Armor/Avoidance, yes. Swapping from the Karazhan exalted ring to something like Seer’s Signet (Scryer Exalted) means dropping 14 Stamina, nearly 400 Armor, and 19 Defense Rating so you can get 34 Spell Power and 12 Spell Crit Rating. On a squishy class that’s just silly. Your first and only priority is to not die in a bloody mist upon contact with a boss, and you’re already incapable of doing that in most situations… why would you limit your already tiny RNG chance of success further?
…this is stupid. You won’t be Frost Shocking but a single mob in a pack anyway and you’ll open with Chain Lightning (which has no threat modifier) so hopefully the Healer doesn’t pull aggro. Then well after they arrive you’ll get to use Frost Shock again on a new target. Is the party going to wait 20 sec to do anything while you individually Frost Shock 5 different mobs?
Frost Shock hits one target every 5 sec. LOL
You’re completely off topic. No one is talking about druid tanks… Talk about a person spewing.
How would a 20% cooldown reduction not help a class that has limited threat generating abilities in the first place? You contradict yourself.
Completely false. If you’re alive and everyone else dies because you can’t hold threat what now? Healers going oom because dps has to wait too much? Threat gen is very important. So important that if Shamans had an actual taunt this wouldn’t be much of a discussion.
Wow you’re not entirely slow. The thing is though Chain Lightning has a cooldown >< so you’ll have to cast something else while the mobs run to you.
What do you cast. Tell me. Please.
Hey now you get it! Shocks are SUPER IMPORTANT. So a 20% reduction is SUPER HELPFUL.
Now you’re just being slow again. Did you forget about your melee attacks? What about the chain lightning on pull? Other tanks struggle to get aggro on larger packs as well. Unless you think warriors can hold threat with tclap…
You’re slow. You forget about melee attacks…
Plus WF is probably better than RB bruh. Even at threat gen considering flurry procs and what not.
Oh and take the bet on your own competence if you don’t want to take my bet.
If a Shaman tanks Illidan when Classic TBC is done, you won’t have anyone to pay, because you’ll understand everyones paid to be around you.