I can already see the outcry, when waiting times in the dungeon finder go up from 45 to 60+ minutes. x)
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Why is that an issue? I enjoy doing lower keys and carrying folks for exactly that. IMO, LFR exists for exactly that as well. Remix was popular from that as well.
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When one role is vastly more powerful and self sufficient than other roles, it means the game is unbalanced.
We’re not talking about a super over geared tank running lower level dungeons.
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Tanks are more self-sufficient when it comes to survival, because it is our job to survive all those mobs we take away from the group. DPS is not our job => we make less DPS; Healing is not our job => we can’t heal the group.
If you look at the big picture: The goal of M+ is doing Keystones appropriate to your itemlevel and skill in time. A tank can’t do that, we still need a healer and 3 DDs to reach the goal.
With that same logic, neither of the other two roles can either. A dps can’t survive without a tank to hold aggro and neither can a healer. They lack the innate dmg reduction.
The idea of the trinity system is to be social and communicate. It worked forever. Tanks eat hits and hold aggro (so the group doesn’t get cleaved), Healers keep everyone topped up (from unavoidable damage), DPS push out dmg to kill things in a timely manner (so Healers don’t run out of resources).
The actual problem isn’t the trinity system but a mixture of inability to properly tune around it/not defining each role/players being determined to min-max even the small things or wanting every role to be able to do everything/addons like DBM that trivialized mechanics.
Over time all of these problems have been blow-up to a higher degree as you have to develop harder or more obnoxious content to fit all of these things.
Side note: Outside of Group Content, Tanks/DPS/Healers shouldn’t need each other to get anything done in a timely manner.
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Exactly my point. It’s the tanks job to hold the mobs and survive them, not the DDs job, nor the healers job. “The trinity” is not broken.
And by the way, to some varying degree we tanks always did rely on the healer. The problem is, that Blizz wants to push that up by a lot. Check Shadowlands S1 for how that did work out. Man, that was a crap show.
From what I can see in quite a bit of groups: No, it didn’t. ^^
Dungeons and raids are team games. You should be REQUIRED to rely on your team to be successful.
Tanks should NOT be the exception to the rule.
If this isn’t your kind of game play, no worries, there is something for everyone. Delves+ or something like that will probably give you what you seek.
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In LFR sure, but people in LFR generally are just doing it for completion or are overgeared (or quite literally don’t care because its LFR).
Shadowlands S1 was indeed a s-show. That’s well known and no one would argue it lol. (Ok, someone somewhere might, but they would be objectively wrong)
But the context of addons like DBM was dating back to its creation. Not recent times. After DBM became a mainstay as a raider and you understood the mechanics to a degree (definitely not to the point you had to without), it made the content easier. Blizz took notice, added in weirder and more absurd mechanics. DBM and others kept up the pace, and its just a war between Blizz trying to make something difficult or mechanic heavy that ultimately DBM makes a lot easier for people that understand just the basic mechanics. That’s what that was in reference to, not simply just having DBM makes you better. No addon actually makes you better, but some can definitely improve your gameplay provided you had some level of skill and knowledge prior.
Oh believe me, over the years I did see things in NHC and HC raids, you wouldn’t believe…most “fun” is the consistency with which people even after a long explanation do the same crap again and again…it’s mind-boggling.
Sure, DBM helps and Blizz did adapt, no question there, but to be honest: I quite like to have to do some extra mechanics and I do appreciate the reminders from DBM. On the other hand I did totally agree with Blizz removing some API parts for addons i.e. back in legion in dungeons…think Odin and the 6 symbols and the pointer over players heads pointing to where you have to go. 
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I’ll just say that as a half blind individual, the mechanics are REALLY hard to navigate without DBM for me. It’s just insane how much crap I can’t see.
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Lmao I cant deny seeing some really… questionable things in Normal/Heroics lol. Its definitely still there, but i like to think its not as bad (may be wishful thinking). Most of the time I ran raids, I ran with my old Guild before it dissolved and after a certain amount of messing up on the same thing on Heroic after you’d been told the mechanics… sorry, got replaced.
And there is nothing wrong with that. DBM isn’t a problem in of itself. If you need a addon to help you or in my case a setting (color blind), it’s never been a problem.
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I just wish it wasn’t necessary. Like in the other games I play, they’re not. Even in ESO, though I do have timers and the like, they’re not really necessary. Mechanics tend to be easily readable or telegraphed in general. In wow its like they deliberately try to confuse you with faint orange circles on an orange floor.
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Yeah, see I can actually play ESO and a few other without Trit mode on. Can make out whats where on the floor.
But without a doubt WoW is one of the worst offenders with overlapping visuals on top of a similar color surface. Even with extra stuff on, i still can’t see cones, I just have to make an estimated guess from trial and error.
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Bestie can’t see shades of purple. A few raids were impossible after they made the effects purple.
In ESO I changed the red to a solid neon pink and haven’t stood in much since.
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Ooo, I should actually try that or like a neon green next time I play. I just defaulted to the filter and didnt even bother adjusting further.
Ty for this!
True, but the original design philosophy of tanking was to focus on minimizing damage taken, not on self-healing all the damage taken while healers just heal everybody else. The whole self-heal tank thing didn’t start until DKs, and their self-healing got pretty badly nerfed for years after WotLK, only to become ridiculous again within the past few expansions–and meanwhile, all the other tanks acquired some level of absurd self-healing as well.
I’d like to see tanking return to “minimizing damage,” and not “undoing damage.”
Undoing damage is the healer’s job.
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Not everything that was designed in a specific way “back in the day” is a good thing. This here is a prime example.
On the tank only to some extent, but by far not completely. And that was also the case in DF. And “the last few expansions”? Do I really have to mention SL S1 again? That was directly before DF, means only DF is more recent. And it was a crap show, especially on the tank side. I think there wasn’t a single expansion, which did let more tanks quit (%-wise). Not even Cata. And now they wanna try the same crap again…well…let’s see how high waiting times can get, I guess.
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Let’s not tell them how much overhealing atonement is really doing or they might whine about that as well.
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For the most part, it seems like healers are the ones harder to find these days. Especially for M+, given how absurd some of the spikes of damage are, combined with the fact that a lot of groups would rather take a 4th DPS than a healer.
When tanks can keep themselves alive, and DPS can sustain their own lives in the event of anything but a one-shot failure…Healers don’t really have much of a place in the game.
Taking some healing away from the tanks, leveling out the damage spikes to be more consistent and sustained rather than sharply spiked, and allowing healers to actually focus on healing instead of DPS with an occasional top-up…maybe that’s what will make people want to play healers again.
I’ve dabbled with some healing in season 4 in low-level M+, and I find it incredibly easy to find a group as a healer. Most of the time they already have a tank and 3 DPS and they’ve been waiting a while for me to show up.
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And exactly there lies the problem…not at the tank.
But that’s not what they did. They did remove a huge part of self-healing and strength from defensives and similar skills and talents.
Also completely without any consideration for solo content and things like questing…Prot Pallie i.e. is a weak mess on the beta, not more.
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