Tanks don't want to rely on healers

If you note my parses are typically higher than the players below me or I’m running with people who are under geared. Both of those make a huge impact. If you take an equal tank and dps in both gear and skill than the dps will always beat the tank except on high count pulls with dps that have aoe caps such as the first pull in AA.

In the first instance this was a pug with a insane healer (well over 3K) and they did a 98% for the key while I was doing a 78% all of the dps did lower with one parsing a 8% for the key. Which means you are comparing high skill versus lower skilled players and even there I’m what 2/3 of the dps as a 34% parse.

In the second case Cruorosa is a new player and she is still learning the correct fury rotation. In addition she has never run M+ prior to that season and we were getting her more confident with mechanics. While sub has done some M+ it was our first run with him and hes good for mid keys but probably needs some work to push into higher keys.

In both of these however you can look at the dps who are pulling closer to what they should in those keys and you will see I do about half the damage. And in many keys you didn’t list you will see that I do less than half particularly if I play with Imp on his pally or priest.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/d23aQq1V7GBhvpkz#fight=6&type=damage-done

Its necessary for there to be difference in the way tanks handle damage. Self healing allows a reactive style while mitigation allows for a proactive style. Each tank allows for different amounts of these. Its not a hole or flaw but purposeful design that is good.

A tank with self sustain has existed since at least wrath and has never been a problem. However what is the role of a healer to heal damage when people need it and to deal damage when they don’t. Which they have been doing.

The main goal of the dps is to do damage, they do this job. In addition they are given a ton of tools to help mitigate. More than at any other time in the game. Should they be able to do half the mitigation probably not because they are not tasked with mitigating auto attacks which is the primary source of damage.

In all honesty though I don’t even get the point of your post. A tank has two things they need to do to fuffil thier role. Establish threat which requires damage (if you don’t want tanks to do damage thats fine but we still need threat somehow,) we than need to mitigate the damage done. They are taking away that second tool, we don’t have nearly enough tools to survive the tank busters in live.

Is there perhaps a good middle ground sure but I’m not talking about design philosophy but rather what is happening on beta right now and tanks have been hit hard enough where in some cases they simply can not even pull the boss without getting one shot. Obviously that is not good design.

That and despite stated intentions we are already seeing kiting happening on the beta.

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Healers have been affix bots for all of DF. They have been better at doing the affixes than they have keeping a DPS alive. Their main role is healing, keeping people alive, it isn’t “solo all the affixes each week”.

That’s the main problem that has brought us here, that and them ignoring spot healing for the entire expansion and trying to make everything focused on the raid, including healer cooldowns.

The only time I see the DPS pulling, even in very low keys, is when the tank is literally moving at a glacial pace. Pulling a single pack at a time and pausing in between.

Heck I’ve even pulled a few times in that situation on heals.

Tanks really only get light hints about their pace until they seem to be taking a smoke break in between each pull.

Do you not understand the fundamental holy trinity of the MMO?

Tank: Takes damage
DPS: Does damage
Healer: Heals damage

Now using the trinity model, who should be healing… I mean “sustaining” the tank? If I was to grab some random person off the tank and use this as a logic puzzle, who would they say is sustaining the tank?

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The tank needs to be able to primarily sustain themself when taking normal damage, otherwise that role has no agency, and you devolve to “get hit from the front and healed from the back” at which point your gameplay becomes boring as sin.

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it’s not that I didn’t read it all is just that your entire argument boils down to “tanks don’t need the team” “the team needs us”…

it’s not the right mentality to have in group play and based on these changes, it seems they agree…

healers have a purpose, tanks have a purpose, dps have a purpose…

like I keep saying, this isn’t GW2 where any 1 player can cover all of the bases on their own and be self-sufficient…but according to your thought process, only tanks should be able to be self-sufficient and damn everyone else…

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You people are arguing massively different content levels/scenarios and you are woefully ignorant if you think these changes are going to turn geared players in your timewalking dungeon into helpless mewling kittens.

Accept that at low content levels, you are unimportant. I don’t care if this hurts fee fees. It’s literally no different than the “glory” days of Vanilla where you invited a raid geared 60 to run you through Wailing Caverns. You can stomp your little feetsies that the big bad meanie didn’t beg your permission to anninhilate the instance or simp for you to give them heals, but once you go into real content levels (double digit keys), you’ll see that, contrary to seemingly popular belief, tanks aren’t immortal gods.

Healers are undervalued because players at those levels ARE just straight up better and they have to be because there is minimal to no room for mistakes. A missed interrupt or taking some kind of avoidable mechanic goes from being unnoticeable in queue content to a 1 shot death sans defensives in mythic+. Healers aren’t even capable of healing something that did 250% of the players max HP bar.

Expecting people to revert to 18+ year old strategies where a simple 4 pack pull had 3 of them hard CC’d while the group single target beat down 1 mob at a time and the healer finger pecked their heal spell isn’t going to happen.

People doing real content levels are absolutely working as a team where everyone is responsible in different ways for the lives of themselves and their fellow teammates. This includes tanks being largely self sufficient so healers can heal themselves/DPS and even sometimes means even the healer helps DPS to burst down a key mob before it does something that demands WAY more resources from the group to recover from.

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Right, and that’s fine and well, but the goal isn’t achievable in the 5 days they’ve given themselves. And that’s a problem. And just to be clear, I’m not saying you’re defending this decision, I’m only saying that this is just unacceptable. This isn’t the sort of massive, sweeping change you dump at the end of a beta cycle.

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No, the argument is that tanks shouldn’t need the team to tank for them. Tanks should do their role, primarily on their own, under normal circumstances. Their role shouldn’t be to be the guy the healer focuses on, it should be to hold the attention of mobs. Which requires them to be alive. The equivalent would be tanks get an ability that increases mob damage taken by a massive amount so that dps need to hope the tank lets them do damage, and dps should get buffs for the healer that allow the healer to actually output healing. Since we left behind sunder armor, blessing of wisdom, etc, that seems to be pretty unpopular.

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The OP title is bait anyway. The changes to BDK don’t turn them into “relying on healers”. Maybe on bosses if you’re too noob to understand how Active Mitigation works, then yes, you are going to get plowed.

Maybe these tanks should be weeded out. BDK went from most complex to mouth breather in Legion, would be nice to see a semi return to form, as in, tanking requiring thought and pre planning on the micro level.

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And why is it the role of a dps to need healing?

Your puzzle is flawed. It fails to account for DPS and healers also taking damage. A reasonable gameplay loop is for the DPS and healers to take damage that is unsustainable without outside influence, and the tank to be -mostly- self sufficient.

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This is the mentality of a lot of tanks with the current design. They want to feel critical to success but also be blameless for failure. The true “have your cake and eat it too” role in WoW.

Tank died on trash? Well healer didn’t pick up the slack by reading their mind and knowing they would need help at that time.

Tank died on boss? Same as above.

Healer died on trash? Shouldn’t have healed the tank before setup.

DPS died on trash? Shouldn’t have touched the mob before setup.

Tank has one interrupt overall? DPS aren’t interrupting enough.

So on and so on.

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Some of the top tanks on blood use Death Strike with enough frequency that they are going to see substantial decreases to sustainability while taking damage. That is their primary defensive ability, and it got absolutely gutted.

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They’re still gonna be sustaining on trash if they understand how tab targeting works.

You’re dooming over something you don’t even understand.

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Healing one more target is not too much.

Even in Dragonflight, there are moments where tanks need healing. So what if those moments are more frequent?

Currently, outside of specific points on bosses or big trash packs, tanks are expected to be self sufficient. If I die, it’s because I messed up. These changes, however, give exactly what you are pretending is the case now. Tanks will be reliant on the healer to keep them alive, therefore a tank death becomes a point of healer failure.

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True.

Kiting sucks, preach brother.

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I’m fine with that being the norm. Far better than tanks spontaneously dying because they forgot something.

In the ancient days of Cataclysm and WOTLK and earlier, tanks were dps that took damage consistently.

I’ve been blamed for plenty of tank deaths as a healer with the current design. I generally see it as a tank fail because I do use things like pain suppression as often as I can to help them out.

This isn’t going to change that it just might make a few of those complaints actually valid.

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