Tanks don't want to rely on healers

[Cur-proudmoore (Cur)]

@Moofurìon-bleeding-hollow

Tanks already don’t do high dps and haven’t since what legion with the vengeance mechanic.

This is false and yo should know it if you didn’t already. I picked 2 random logs from what looks like your weakest and strongest dungeons. Both times you were up there with the dps, beating the warrior in the weaker of them.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/d23aQq1V7GBhvpkz#fight=10&type=summary
Your strongest was an AA, the damage breakdown is this:

Mineru 26.12%
Scragula  21.24%
Koonaan  20.22%
Uriggyll  16.48%
Moofurìon 15.88%

This is a pretty good log to show the problem with healer DPS as well. Neither of you should be doing around 3/4 of a full DPS class.

The weaker one I looked at was a OPlains,
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/TgrYha8W9cbAxPFG#fight=45&type=summary

Xandoril  33.91%
Subfocus 23.83%
Moofurìon 21.74%
Cruorosa  17.95%
Wlkrtxranger 1.20%

Even this one, which strikes me as a pug or something, you are doing around 3/4 of a full dps class, beat one, and almost tie the other.

Do you think a full DPS class should be able to heal 3/4 as well as a full healer, or take damage 3/4 as well as a full tank? I bet you don’t. This isn’t even getting into you beating the healer in healing done.

@Moofurìon-bleeding-hollow

As far as sustain and self healing those are the two ways tanks survive damage and depending on the tank their ability to do either changes drastically. BDK is horrible at mitigation but amazing at self healing on the other hand monks suck at healing but mitigate like a champ. This is the main core of tank play without this what is tanking reduced to?

You’re exactly right. Blizzard has dug themselves into a hole here and it is going to be very awkward to dig themselves out without fundamental changes to those specs.

@Moofurìon-bleeding-hollow

My question is what do you think the role of a tank is? To simply position mobs and than act as a healing dummy target for healers? I can’t say I’ve ever seen that be the main reason to play a tank.

Fundamentally, yes. You even say so yourself.

@Moofurìon-bleeding-hollow

A tank is a character whose primary purpose or class role is to absorb damage and prevent others from being attacked.

Adding in self sustain means that healing is taken away from the healer and given it to the tank. One might ask, what do you think the role of the healer is if not to heal the other members of the group, including tank?

Could you provide a good reason why the DPS should also not be allowed to have that level of self sustain, that can’t be repurposed to defeat your own idea for the tank having it. Or at least 3/4 that level of self sustain.

[Spirits-hellscream]

@Awkward-frostmourne

The more popular power level is the former, where you live or die based on your own play and not die because the healer was picking their nose.

Try a single player game for this experience.

[Galabris-alexstrasza (Galabris)]

You seem to be under thus delusion that the tank/groups need to have a strategy meeting every pull as well as get consent forms signed and notarized by the entire group to actually pull. It’s absurd.

In queue content, you aren’t important. This undoubtedly comes across as rude but it doesn’t change the fact that queue content players are 1 notch above NPCs and these tank nerfs aren’t going to change anything but ever so slightly raise the bar from when a geared tank (or even DPS) blitzes a dungeon whether you want to feel like you were a valuable contributing member or not.

Go beyond queue content into double digit keys and actually watch how it’s done. The tank doesn’t blitz to a boss while the 4 other people stay dead.

I totally get left of bell curves struggle with a 3-4+ pack pull and dodging all the stuff, timing/coordinating interrupts/CC’s, and maintaining high uptime and making proper rotation/cooldown decisions with everything going on. I totally get these types want to go back to a day where a group CCs 3 out of a 4 mob pack pull and everyone gives everyone else loads of compliments on how “awesome” each other is at pushing a button and handling “such a tough pull”. It isn’t going to happen.

In real content, tanks aren’t indestructible juggernauts blindly blitzing to a boss while their party is 500 yards back dying to instance wide pulse damage while the tank takes single digit points of damage while pushing 1 button to effortlessly do bajillions of DPS and self healing. It is an undeniable truth that tanks have it way too good, especially in raid content when it comes to mechanics and punishments for taking avoidable damage, but the shenegians that happen in queue content are the result of queue content being way too easy.

[Clasm-stormrage]

@Shiftydruid-area-52

wet noodle

giggles

that wet noodle dps probably hits harder than my main dps… when I hear someone say soak, I just start laughing uncontrollably.

[Froomstbolt-stormrage]

@Cur-proudmoore

The answer might be having to adjust tank threat so they can’t snap aggro and run, then balance the dungeon (including timer) around that. They might even need to make it so that if a tank doesn’t hit a mob for X seconds their threat on it drops.

Except, in this hypothetical and apparently state of the game in beta, they’re kiting because if they don’t, they die. So your solution is to force tanks to suicide into every pack, or lose threat?

[Kennie-malganis]

Healers don’t want to heal tanks.

Tanks don’t want to rely on healers not looking at social media.

I’m not really sure who these changes are for.

[Cur-proudmoore (Cur)]

It forces Blizzard to balance better. I’m not defending Blizzard’s change, I’m advocating for the goal. Check my other posts even in this thread. I usually include some form of putting the blame on Blizzard and how they have really messed things up and are pretty bad at real changes and tend to just stick a bandage on things.

[Kiyoko-ravenholdt]

People who complained tanks weren’t dying in timewalking, normals, and heroics. Which is where these changes will matter least.

@Cur-proudmoore

I’m not defending Blizzard’s change, I’m advocating for the goal.

If the goal is to make it so tanks have no agency and rely on healers babysitting to keep them alive through basic intake damage, the goal is terrible as well.

[Cur-proudmoore (Cur)]

@Kiyoko-ravenholdt

make it so tanks have no agency

That is so hyperbolic I’m not wasting time responding to the rest of your post. Do better.

[Kennie-malganis]

@Kiyoko-ravenholdt

If the goal is to make it so tanks have no agency and rely on healers babysitting to keep them alive through basic intake damage, the goal is terrible as well.

I mean they did sort of offset it with the change to affixes, I guess, so in the end I doubt much changes.

[Kiyoko-ravenholdt]

Massive tank sustain decreases across the board with the stated goal of forcing tanks to rely on healers to keep them up. Tanks rely on healers to do the job of tanking. Do better.

[Clasm-stormrage]

@Kiyoko-ravenholdt

If the goal is to make it so tanks have no agency

You DO have agency…the agency is to maintain aggro and keep the mobs off of other players??? the healers agency is to heal you and the dps to make sure the party remains alive.

Why should you rob the agency from the healer? oh, only DPS should require healing??? make this make sense…

[Tiresias-moon-guard (Tiresias)]

There have been a lot of healer complaints about not being needed in M+ and being asked or forced to dps in groups. It just seemed that healers were losing their place and becoming dps and some people want to heal not dps.

[Kiyoko-ravenholdt]

The job of tank is to tank mobs, not be the guy the healer spam casts healing surge on. If tank requires the healer to keep them up in normal damage intake, then they don’t have agency and cannot perform their role.

[Kiyoko-ravenholdt]

@Tiresias-moon-guard

It just seemed that healers were losing their place and becoming dps and some people want to heal not dps.

This is a terrible attempt at a solution. Now the problem is equally present, just shifting it to tanks and making healer always the blame point in the case of any failure, since they are in charge of keeping the tank alive as well as dps and themselves, rather than tanks being able to tank mobs.

[Clasm-stormrage]

@Kiyoko-ravenholdt

The job of tank is to tank mobs, not be the guy the healer spam casts healing surge on. If tank requires the healer to keep them up in normal damage intake, then they don’t have agency and cannot perform their role.

the job of the tank is not to just sit there soaking all damage without needing healer intervention… it’s to maintain aggro WITH healer assistance… tanks should not be a one man show and obviously the devs agree hence the change…

This is a trinity…not guild wars 2.

[Kiyoko-ravenholdt]

Tank should primarily be a one-man show when they are the only person in a group who is a tank. It shouldn’t be on the healer to also be the one in charge of tanking duties.

@Clasm-stormrage

This is a trinity…

Not really. Because tanks aren’t functional on their own to complete their role. So healer now shoulders that responsibility. And responsibility to keep everyone else up through damage spikes. This is a healer show now, as skill expression from tanks got slashed hard across the board.

[Clasm-stormrage]

@Kiyoko-ravenholdt

Tank should primarily be a one-man show

100% disagree. There is a team composition for a reason. One person should not be a one man show in a TEAM setting.

[Wariya-stormrage (Wariya)]

There were healers?? I thought we called them Cheerleaders

[Kiyoko-ravenholdt]

They should be for the one role in the team that is unique to them, but I guess reading is hard since you cut out most of what I said.