I’m not raging. Just pointing out how pathetic you are. Have a nice day if you can. Try not to get too jealous of the people having fun. Maybe some day you can too.
This right here. Cast times are such an old MMO hangover. Make everything instant and adjust the cooldowns accordingly. Then everyone is able to do their role and mechanics more efficiently.
The argument is, healers complained about it for years and Blizz gave them what they wanted, yet they’re now complaining about that too. When the forum (an obviously poor sample but for some reason Blizz actually makes some changes off of it’s feedback) is constantly “we should only have to heal” then people shouldn’t be mad that the whole group started getting mollywhopped.
Disagreeing isn’t attacking. You’ve suggested ideas and I’ve suggested some, the main one being, just kick players who are being a detriment to the group. These problems only exist in pugs where people just treat each other poorly, which isn’t a gameplay problem.
Indeed.
That’ll happen when people who are at the high end of the skill ladder are cooped up in easy content. Plus world gear was available pretty quick that helped people overpower them.
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I would argue that even for high skill players there should be more of a gear progression than what is happening in DF. If you’ve got five Echo guys then sure, but for your average raiding player you shouldn’t be able to run boss to boss in M0 the second you hit 70. That should be a wipe.
To be clear, I think those players should be able to clear that M0 without deaths with more measured pulls and contributions from the entire team, even with large pulls. There just shouldn’t be any role that can solo the place that early in the gear progression.
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Tuning m0 up would seem to be the best idea there IMO.
People who ask for tanks to be nerfed are the same people who go throughout their day to day lives hating themselves and everyone and everything around them. There is no other explanation because if the tank is strong and having fun, then everyone else by default is having fun by winning more.
Unless… said people calling for nerfs are just casual trolls who don’t play end game content, and it wouldn’t affect them other than to satisfy their munchausin need to harm other people’s classes for self attention and enjoyment.
The problem is that compared to the difficulty of the content, tanks do not need their group mates to survive literally every mob from boss 1 to boss 2. There are tanks that do not stop moving forward until they reach the boss, pulling every pack they aggroed along the way onto that boss. With the amount of group wide damage Blizzard designed into DF dungeons, this makes it very difficult for the group to survive. Many times, group members don’t even make it to the boss before the random damage kills them. It’s not fun to be nothing but a spectator to a tank that doesn’t need you whilst pulling the entire dungeon at the same time.
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Me - “Make holding 2-3 child’s play”
You - “There’s no way the majority of non-planned groups are going to sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting for a tank to get aggro.”
Yeah nothing more fun than doing literally nothing except getting wiped out by incidental damage. So fun! What kind of logic is this.
It basically sounds like you just havent done m+ whatsoever.
You can very easily verify whether I have by looking me up on raider.io. Hint: I’ve done a lot of M+.
M+ quickly scales to the point where these kinds of pull habits are not possible because not even the tank can survive them. I’m not complaining about pulling 3-4 packs in an area for the group to burn down especially with CDs. In those situations, the team has a fighting chance at least. My concern are when the tank doesn’t let go of W until they reach the first boss, dragging every pack with them, then the second boss and third and so on. This isn’t even the fastest way to pull the dungeon so M+ strategies aren’t likely to do this even for the overzealous tanks.
In BFA and especially SL, tanks wouldn’t survive the run by pulling this way in most keys. A big portion of the damage going out was on the tank. In fact the SL S1 and S2 meta where tanks had to kite everything was exceptionally bad and not something I want to go back to. I’m not arguing for the pendulum to swing that far back the other way in the slightest.
In DF, Blizzard shifted most of the damage to the group with the tank facing very little by comparison. This is what has enabled tanks to glue their W key down to the deck and still live whist the group is rotting down to the unavoidable damage, damage that isn’t stopped due to not enough interrupts or players not being able to find the mob to interrupt on the go, and healers having to opportunity to pump enough throughput since they have no time to stop and cast.
This problem will correct itself for groups making it into keys of any real level. But for anyone doing normal, heroic, M0, and even some lower M+ keys, this degenerate pulling pattern will continue unless Blizzard changes something. You’re going to have players getting into +4 keys who have absolutely no idea what abilities do, what to interrupt, when to pop defensives because their entire dungeon experience leading to that point was being dragged from boss to boss, oftentimes dead for 2/3 of the dungeon and still getting the IO and loot for having “participated.”
To reiterate, when a tank significantly overgears the content, this is fine. I have no problem with the 421 ilvl tank carrying a buddy coming back to the game a couple weeks before S2 drops through even low keys without stopping. I have a problem when a tank 30 seconds into being level 70 having the ability to do so. They should be able to get through the M0 even with relatively large pulls. They shouldn’t be able to pull 9 packs onto the boss and never drop below 80% health.
You -
Me -
Ok then that is a player problem. Not a tank problem, alot of newer people are playing tank and think theres nothing to it.
They pull a ton, die, kill the key.
It happens the vast majority of people suck.
The point is that the tank isn’t dying while the rest of the group oftentimes does. I’m not worried about the +12 key where tanks can’t pull so recklessly. This is solely a problem in normal, heroic, M0, and even some low level keys. There are tanks hitting 70 and immediately jumping into M0s pulling the way I’m describing. Whether this is tanks being overtuned, M0 dungeons being undertuned, gear scaling being entirely out of whack, or some combination of the three, I’m not sure.
I just know that having to try to keep a group alive in a Neltharus M0 on my discipline priest in week 1 of DF while the tank does the entire dungeon in 4 pulls on a full run is not fun. It may be fun for the tank, and perhaps some of the DPS were having a good time, but I certainly was not. And this wasn’t a one off with that tank; I’ve had more M0 like this than where the tank stops before reaching the next boss. I’m fine with multi-group pulls, I actually prefer them. But when a tank can pull such that their entire group dies and they’re able to solo it all while not being significantly more geared than the group, that’s a clear indication the balance ecosystem is broken.
In a couple 8-10 keys I’ve had to solo some bosses for 15% of their HP because people screw up mechanics… I stay alive simply because I play mechanics better than the group not because of my mitigation kit…
Everytime in my runs… I see chat going “tank op” “nerf” “toxic tank” “slow down”… Like bruh… Healers need to shift their focus off the tanks with heals and focus on the party… Only time they ever need to heal me is during tank busters or if DPS screw me over by bringing mechanics to me.
This expansion before that tank nerf was the best for tanks. It was the best for healers to if they actually realized they didn’t need to heal tanks much anymore unless it’s a raid situation.
Blizz should have gave healers more time to learn this. But no because of a couple dumb clips from twitch they went and nerfed us overnight. Oh and btw I went and did the same thing in these clips again and it felt the same so get ready for more nerfs.
Blizz you need to focus on the players, not streamers and world first guilds… We’re people too.
… slow down as in not pull half the dungeon.
A new tank should still have no problem holding 3 mobs without having to think.
No one likes losing health, healers should press a single button to have everyone at full health.
No one likes low dps, dps should be able to kill mobs instantly with a button press.
No one likes losing aggro, tanks shouldnt have to worry about it just press a button and have 200% threat.
Tanks should be either hard to kill or threat generating monsters, not both.
Its more so that litterally everyone before m+ even came out essentially had gear too easily do 10s the second it cane out.
Our gear we had during launch week was insane. We immediately overgeared regular mythic within the first few days of the xpac because of the insane world gear.
We had crafted gear, cobalt rings, wrathion cape, insanely strong workd trinkets like the primal shell, pots that give a ton of stats aswell. All of that combined while being very overgeared for the content allows tanks too pull whatever.
It’s bigger than just the world and easily farmable gear, though. For most tank classes, they can hit 70 at 6:00PM, be in a M0 at 6:02PM, and pull from boss to boss without ever seeing their health dip below 75%. It’s possible questing greens/blues are overtuned for M0, but regardless the situation goes deeper than just players spending a few hours post-70 getting overpowered gear.
But regardless of the reason why, something is off with the ecosystem. It should not be possible for tanks in gear acquired from lower than raid or M+ to pull every pack from the start of the dungeon onto boss 1 and survive, then repeat that on the way to every single boss. Whether this is a problem with the power of tanks in general, the gear that’s available, the dungeons being undertuned, or some combination of the three, there are a lot of people being turned off by the way many tanks are pulling what are supposed to be learning dungeons. Every difficulty up to M+ is being pulled this way; unless the newer player is the tank or can always run these dungeons with friends/guild mates who will take it a bit slower, they’ll have no ability to learn these dungeons or even appreciate them.
Whichever angle of the 3 Blizzard decides to change would be fine with me at this point, but they need to tweak at least one of them. I like M+ and like I mentioned, spend most of my time in game in M+. I’m all for the tank doing large pulls. It’s just the mad dash to the next boss isn’t actually faster especially with casters and in DF dungeons oftentimes results in deaths due to missed kicks as a result of the group being so spread out and the lack of ability for most healers to do enough throughput on the move.