Unsub then. Problem solved. Otherwise I think you’ll survive not having 2 point nodes quite well.
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the thing is, shaman DOES have 2 point nodes, they are just presented differently:
Hex + Hex improvement
Windrush + Windrush improvement
Capacitor + Capacitor improvement
Thunderstom + Thunderstorm improvement
Earth shield + improvement
Totemic recall + improvement
Frost shock + improvement
Healing stream + improvement
etc.
Other trees maybe have 1-3 things like that, but shaman has about 10.
If you notice that, then you’d see half the tree is basically a bunch of 2 point nodes.
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Which is unfortunate. 2pt talents should be rare.
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This is a really good point. I’d argue that this different presentation fits the class fantasy of Shaman too by having lots of utility & flexibility in options due to the elements.
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I guess I’ll have to spell out an example in the current Shaman tree on live. I’ll preface it with assuming they have a standard to balance the unitary strength of passive talents with. For I know you’ll say: “That’s stupid. We get the strength of two points in one with all of those talents now.”:
In a raid situation, where you have an abundance of stamina from gear, maybe exceptional healers, or like a priest with Power Word: Fortitude. You may want those multipoints in the middle: Elemental Warding, Nature’s Guardian, Winds of Al’Akir, Totemic Focus. To allow points on the bottom of the tree to get ahold of: Mana Spring, Nature’s Swiftness, Stoneskin Totem, Poison Cleansing Totem, Totemic Recall. For the mid-section of the tree, to address that pathing issue for example: You can take two points in either Elemental Warding or Nature’s Guardian and one in the other, to steer the tree toward: Thunderstorm ↔ Ancestral Guidance → Mana Spring. In that process also you could keep both talents, and that is what makes builds more unique, providing “utility” for players.
This is all fine in LFR/normal/heroic and low keys where you can have multiple people in raid play extremely suboptimal builds and die doing tank damage and still be able to kill any boss but that doesn’t fly in mythic let alone high M+ keys where all those 2 point nodes you mentioned are mandatory to survive and thus enact a tax on available points preventing players from actual impactful utility picks like grabbing shorter CD on Capacitor totem for Mythic Raz, getting Earth Shield alongside Elemental Orbit + Surging Sheild to put Earth Shield on yourself and maybe your tank on a high key during Fortified or difficult raid fight like Mythic Sark, or extended duration and CD reduction on Totems. Everything you just said can be accomplished with 1-point talents and do not require them to be 2 points. If you don’t want Nature Guardian because you think you got good enough healers, just don’t talent into it.
Why should we get prevented from making utility picks in difficult content where certain talents are mandatory so you can have your utility options in content that does not matter what talents you take at all? It’s a very ego-centric viewpoint and it is why nobody agrees with your assertion.
It is stupid. You don’t get to deny reality to make your point. The only way they could balance your assertion would be to make the 2 point nodes ridiculously overpowered with 2 points which will simply add to power creep.
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What’s reality? Your situation is different than mine. You’re just basically saying that my opinion “doesn’t matter” from my experience with the game. My points are just as valid as yours, the only thing your citing is potentially incomplete information from third party websites. That is reality, as much as sims are for the best gear. Sometimes the raid scenario is beyond calculation when real humans are playing.
They’re not. Your experience is relevant because it shapes your viewpoint. And yet here you are denying other’s viewpoints. Our situations are different but everyone in this thread has cleared LFR/Normal/Heroic or have done higher level keys But you haven’t done mythic or high keys so you have no idea how the talent system plays out in that content so you can’t have an informed opinion on a game system that affects every level of content. And you’re actively denying the viewpoint of people who participate in content that you have not done with these talent trees. And you don’t need logs to see what raid content you’ve done. I can just find it looking at your Armory which is Blizzard managed and not 3rd party.
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So, what’s your vision for talent trees? All one points because multipoints aren’t valid? Having more than one potential point into Nature’s Guardian is a good design, you’re just negating that by saying: “It’s just one point now”, and then probably something like: “15%/30% would be too much”.
1 point nodes with more choice nodes options. Think Thunderous Paws/Spirit Wolf, Planes Traveler/Astral Bulwark. For example, one thing I was hoping for was to get a choice node between Elemental Orbit and Surging Sheilds; it’s an equal utility trade-off to either throw an Earth Sheild on your fellow squish member of your M+ key group or decide to strengthen your own Earth Sheild if your other party members are good. You now have 4 dimensions of choice with 2 different talent nodes with 1 of them being a choice node:
- Do I even need Earth Sheild for the content I am doing?
- I’m taking Earth Sheild but do I need to do more or is the base version alright and I could stick my other point into something else?
- If I am taking it do I want to take Elemental Orbit to stick one on my tank for the M+ group because the trash in this key is particularly rough for tanks?
- Do I want to take Surging Sheilds just to make my own Earth Shield way stronger because the bosses in this key do a lot of of unavoidable damage?
The issue with 2-point nodes is not with them being valid or not, it’s whether their impact is more beneficial or harmful compared to a 1-point variant. 2-point nodes have incredibly high drawbacks compared to potential benefits whereas even with the negatives that could exist with 1-point nodes, the 1-point benefits vastly outweigh the negatives they have upon the game at all levels of content for all players.
Here’s a question I have: why are you not advocating for 3-point nodes?
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“Every Voice Matters” is inclusion like it should be the same across the whole board. Shouldn’t be targeting one particular class/spec to be excluded – relatively. This conversation has officially just become opinion so. I’ll ask this question again:
Does it hurt other people SO much if there’s one or two multipoint talents in the main tree? For the sake of inclusion and relative symmetry. For the interplay(utility) on the examples that I gave with Nature’s Guardian.? Or, because you have an issue with me: Are you just going to say it does not matter and insult me about my personal situation?
It does not matter because, for the content you do, it doesn’t matter that much what talents you choose.
Irrelevant. Literally, no spec tree in DF has been symmetrical so IDK why you are even talking about this.
It quite literally does and I have already explained why this affects players. We’ have also explained why having these in the spec tree negatively impacts specs/classes like Enhance. But I want you to acknowledge that I am advocating for the ability to make choices in the talents you may want to specialize in but in a manner that does not require the talent trees to have 2-point nodes. Would you not like something like the Earth Sheild suggestion I made? Or is it inefficient because there are not 2 point nodes included?
We quite literally want every talent tree for every spec/class to not have 2-point nodes. We want every spec in the game to be like Ele Shaman, not for Ele Shaman to be the only spec with 1 point node.
I was happy with the ode to multipoints to begin with. And I don’t want to push the issue, and have what was implemented just perfect to become a garbage fight for players.
Relative, symmetry: here.
IS symmetry just having Ele shaman have the same number of 2-point nodes as other specs? Because again that is quite literally irrelevant to its function. Nobody cares that Ele doesn’t have the same amount of 2 point nodes as other spec and are again quite frankly happy they don’t have 2 point nodes. We care about the tree functioning well and it is functioning quite better without 2 point nodes compared to having 2 point nodes. What other trees are doing is completely irrelevant.
Yet the old talent trees were not perfect with their 3 and 5 point nodes. Hence why they were redesigned in Cata and completely removed in MOP.
What you are arguing for does not grant the flexibility you think it does in the MODERN talent trees. Having 5 talents points that grant 1% X stat per point is not fun, it’s not MODERN, it’s outdated and boring.
If you like the old way so much, you can play classic. Wait you don’t want to do that? Why because of the modern things you want to do? Then deal with the MODERN trees that should be ALL 1 point nodes for every spec and class (see the symmetry there?).
It would be like arguing you should be able to ride your horse down a main street. You could do it back in the 1800s, why not now? Now if you want to live like that you could be Amish and live in a “Classic” town. Or you must adjust and drive a vehicle or take public transportation that’s not a horse.
Move your damn horse, I’m trying to drive here on this street and all you are doing on your horse is creating issues and accidents.
Get off your horse.
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It really isn’t asking very much for that to be the case, because it was the case before. You are very much in opposition to whatever it is that I am advocating regardless of it negatively effects other players or not. It’s not nothing they got rid of seven multipoint talents from the main tree and ten from the Elemental tree.
You aren’t the voice for everyone else.
I’m not but again you’re ignoring that everyone is voicing similar sentiments to mine in this thread and in ALL of the feedback threads for different classes. Whereas nobody has agreed with your point or echoed your points in elsewhere. Go make a thread in the general thread and ask the vast majority of the forums for their opinion on this.
If I’m not the voice for everyone then you are most certainly a voice for nobody.
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Your juxt is everyone is against me. It’s obvious what you’re doing. I’ve been dealing what that argumentation tactic my entire life.
Well, it sounds like then you’re the issue if you are running into this in other environments. If you keep running into the whole “everyone is against me” in multiple different scenarios and interpersonal environments the only common denominator is you. Maybe self-reflect my guy. This thread is a good place to start. Even if you ignored me and hid all my responses on this thread, people are still calling your idea and argument dumb and poorly formulated.
The fact you haven’t ignored me at this point and continued to engage with me is also speaking volumes that you’re arguing for the sake of arguing and haven’t really thought on your own points based on the presented arguments against your assertion. You just seem mad that people don’t think like you and disagree with your point.
That’s not necessarily true. There’s plenty of reasons why it may seem to be that way.
Isn’t that the truth, and you’re telling me that I’m the one that should reflect. It’s like we’re the only two in here.