Talanji should have asked both factions for aid instead of only one

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

@Doness-kargath

No it was a punishment from Thrall.

Nah, Thrall settled a land that was harsh but had what was needed, Daelin Proudmoore clearcut forests that started out desertification of the zone that greatly reduced the available resources.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

So that means the Horde gets to attack and take resources from the night elves? Who had nothing to do with Daelin or Kul Tiras at the time.

Like if the Horde truly wanted retributive justice instead of just an excuse to steal, take it up with Kul Tiras(who by the way the Alliance rebuffed and they left it because they wouldnt help them attack the Horde). Instead the Horde decided to steal resources from a third party who had nothing to do with Daelin.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

@Zerde-sargeras

So that means the Horde gets to attack and take resources from the night elves?

So that means that alliance actions deprived the horde of resources they needed. And that while Thrall did have a bit of the idea of redemptive hardship he originally chose a place that provided enough to survive and wasn’t setting his people up for failure in a land that couldn’t support them.

[Doness-kargath (Doness)]

I thought it was retconned so it was alrady barren, and that’s why Thrall moved then there, not that the it was Lush and Daelin cut it down.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

From what I remember it was harsh but provided enough, but then the clearcutting changed that. Not lush, but not barren either.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

So instead of trying to trudge along, find alternatives and maybe realize that Daelin did what he did because of actions the Horde did to him and his family and nation the Horde decides to involved an innocent third party and decide to steal their resources instead?

Talk about a great start to a path of redemption.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

I was just responding to a point about the state of Durotar when Thrall chose it and at least as my memory serves how that went. That Thrall didn’t choose a land that couldn’t support them, but someone else’s actions caused that.

And really, do you have to go to bat for characters that were written as captain planet level obvious villains in WC3?

[Karestae-moon-guard]

@Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood

And really, do you have to go to bat for characters that were written as captain planet level obvious villains in WC3?

He does and he has. If a character is remotely alliance aligned, he WILL justify their actions

[Vedhu-wyrmrest-accord]

@Zerde-sargeras

So instead of trying to trudge along, find alternatives and maybe realize that Daelin did what he did because of actions the Horde did to him and his family and nation the Horde decides to involved an innocent third party and decide to steal their resources instead?

They weren’t stealing their resources, there was already a trade route in place with the Night Elves and the Horde… that the Night Elves broke because they chose to punish the entire Horde after the Wrathgate. Also, from an in-universe perspective, why the buck would they care about the Second War?

“Oh we did bad things to him years ago, him coming down to our home after we moved to get AWAY from the humans is quite understandable.”

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Vedhu-wyrmrest-accord

“Oh we did bad things to him years ago, him coming down to our home after we moved to get AWAY from the humans is quite understandable.”

The Horde literally stole an Alliance navy. You know he was GRAND ADMIRAL of the Alliance fleets. Again, how can it be a path to redemption when it start with stealing?

@Vedhu-wyrmrest-accord

They weren’t stealing their resources, there was already a trade route in place with the Night Elves and the Horde…

Did people collectively forget Warsong Gulch is a battleground for the two factions? There may have been some degree of trade that happened by around wrath but that ended due to BOTH Garrosh’s aggressive stance and a Twilight Hammer plot.

@Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood

That Thrall didn’t choose a land that couldn’t support them, but someone else’s actions caused that.

I would also point out Durotar, even after Daelin’s escapade was still supporting the orcish people. It was only Deathwing’s return that messed up the land to the point it became harder to support it people. Hell, Garrosh managed to still fund both a rebuilding of the city and his army. It would probably have been hard to survive but it was still doable.

[Vedhu-wyrmrest-accord]

@Zerde-sargeras

The Horde literally stole an Alliance navy. You know he was GRAND ADMIRAL of the Alliance fleets. Again, how can it be a path to redemption when it start with stealing?

Because the New Horde ended up doing this.

Fighting alongside the Night Elves and Humans against Archimonde… h ttps://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Twilight_of_the_Gods_(WC3_NightElf)

and before that, fighting the Warsong Clan who had fallen into demonic corruption because they needed to be stopped with Jaina’s forces.

h ttps://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/By_Demons_Be_Driven_(WC3_Orc)

Stealing’s bad, but the good the New Horde did outweighs it.

[Waygs-bleeding-hollow]

@Zerde-sargeras

So that means the Horde gets to attack and take resources from the night elves? Who had nothing to do with Daelin or Kul Tiras at the time.

Daelin was a paid up member of the Alliance at the time.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Waygs-bleeding-hollow

Daelin was a paid up member of the Alliance at the time.

And the night elves were not at that point. And more importantly, Kul Tiras left the Alliance. So again, if the Horde wanted blood money go after Kul Tiras and not the organization they quit because they wouldnt help him.

@Vedhu-wyrmrest-accord

Stealing’s bad, but the good the New Horde did outweighs it.

So are we doing a trolley problem style justification for the Horde’s action now? Because not only did the Horde steal those ships they murder Alliance soldiers to get to it.

@Karestae-moon-guard

He does and he has. If a character is remotely alliance aligned, he WILL justify their actions

Considering certain poster’s response about the Horde’s actions seems they are willing to find whatever justification as well.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

@Zerde-sargeras

So are we doing a trolley problem style justification for the Horde’s action now? Because not only did the Horde steal those ships they murder Alliance soldiers to get to it.

Stealing those ships ends up being the best thing for Azeroth as a whole. Without the horde at the battle for Mount Hyjal, the Scourge and Legion forces win and the entire world dies

You’re welcome.

[Aussielight-dathremar (Aussielight)]

@Iiraveth-moon-guard

This already happened, kinda… and the Horde started a war as a result.

Following the Incident at the Wrath Gate, with Putress and his forsaken followers betraying the Horde and Alliance, the Night Elves exclusively blamed the Horde and this brought us the incident seen in Cataclysm, where the Night Elves, as a result of the Wrath Gate incident, denied trade with the Horde, and denied them access in Ashenvale.

I meant more-so specifically after the wake of the War of Thorns and BFA.

Such as them having collective reawakened vigor & pushing back with the united power of the Night Elves, the Highborne and some Druids of the Flame who have also joined under their banner recently (Perhaps even some Worgen Night-Elves) to overwhelm the Horde and swiftly build fortifications to either keep them out, or successfully hold them off long enough that they can rebuild their other establishments and bolstered defences throughout Ashenvale.

Through the Horde campaign to gather intelligence, you could reveal they already began preparations on other forests & areas too – such as:

• Darkshore
• Hyjal
• Feralas
• Northern Ashenvale Felwood
• And even see a stronger push into Azshara as their next prime target of reclamation

Before ultimately revealing the eye-widening discovery that the Night-Elves have decided to claim all of – or at least the grand majority of …

Kalimdor!

Additionally you’d also get some roaring Night Elf pride and it’d be a refreshing change for once to see the Alliance on the offense & the Horde on defence

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

So if Jaina murdering and drowning Ogrimmar would be best for Azeroth and then it would be justified? Yeah fun moral.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

@Zerde-sargeras

So if Jaina murdering and drowning Ogrimmar would be best for Azeroth and then it would be justified? Yeah

What does Jainas attempted genocide have to do with the Horde stealing ships, to flee Eastern Kingdoms to get away from the Scourge/the alliance and ultimately uniting to defeat the legion?

Just learn to deal with the fact that if the horde doesn’t make it to Kalimdor, everyone looses when Archimond attacks Mount Hyjal

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Karestae-moon-guard

What does Jainas attempted genocide have to do with the Horde stealing ships, to flee Eastern Kingdoms to get away from the Scourge/the alliance and ultimately uniting to defeat the legion?

Your justification for MURDER is these murders lead to less people dying. If wiping out the Horde was a net good for the Horde then by your logic it would be fine and moral.

@Karestae-moon-guard

Just learn to deal with the fact that if the horde doesn’t make it to Kalimdor, everyone looses when Archimond attacks Mount Hyjal

And the Horde should deal with the fact Daelin was a monster of their own creation.

[Karestae-moon-guard]

@Zerde-sargeras

And the Horde should deal with the fact Daelin was a monster of their own creation

And he died for it. By own his daughters hand no less

[Karestae-moon-guard]

@Zerde-sargeras

Your justification for MURDER is these murders lead to less people dying

My POINT, is the entire world was at stake of being WIPED OUT zerde. A few boats is more important than the population of the entire world?

Really? That’s the hill you want to die on?