Do you honestly want me to absolve someone of their terrible crimes against their victims because some entity made them lose the memories of their actions?
Is that supposed to right the wrong for the victim? Their loss?
If we were to apply this to Sylvanas. She didn’t chose to get stabbed by the runeblade… and she didn’t choose to get her soul restored.
So what? she is blameless? Innocent? No. She had agency when she did the crimes and has to answer for them. And if she start being a humanitarian worker for all her days she will never undo or make amends for what she did.
Like how many houses does she need to rebuild to make all the lives lost worth it?
Is Blizzard going to make her self-sacrifice that I am supposed to shed a tear for? No the character is unsalvageable. Just treat it as such and move on unless you make it right by the victims and their loss.
In this case, Zavala and Ikora, Caydes best friends and fellow Fireteam members have forgiven Crow for what he did as Uldren because they know Crow is not Uldren.
For what she did while controlled by Arthas / Ner’zhul yes she is. After that no. Since he had her free will back.
The reason why I don’t play Destiny is because it bored me and the story was uninteresting to me. If you like it that is fine, I respect that people will have different takes than I do. But My logic for why I think Sylvanas is guilty applies to Crow as well.
If his sentence was death but he returned to life then just pass the same sentence again.
This runs on a very old philosophical problem wherein you essentially punish an innocent if they can’t remember the life in which they committed the crime.
But the punishment does undo any good that person might have done, because at their core a prison doesn’t allow any good to be done for the outside world. They exist purely to contain people.
Justice and Reformation became the interest more recently, the concept of retribution as a part of the law is largely becoming obsolete.
You seem to miss an important detail. Uldren did not return to life. yes it is his body, his voice but it is not him. You are more than your external body. What Uldren did during Forsaken was for his sister in a twisted way. Even after he found out he was being manipulated by Riven (the hard way), he still believed what he was doing was for Mara. Crow on the other hand helps us deal with the Hive and other threats because he wanted to. We didn’t force him to help, he did so on his own free will.
If Zavala and Ikora are willing to let the past go and recognize that Crow IS NOT ULDREN but you can’t… you are missing the point. Just like Petra. What is funny is that after Crow learns from Savathun what his past life did, he leaves on his own. Even leaving Glint behind since he wants to prove to himself that he is not Uldren. Meanwhile Petra, one of those responsible for pushing him away admits that they actually need his help dealing with Xivu Arath and her forces.
Maybe I should have rephrased it better. It is not so much a resurrection but a reincarnation.
It definitely is an interesting philosophical question, but for me its about the victims and the discouragement of similar actions by others in the future. The concerns of the criminal for me are secondary.
I am personally not interested in what potential good the criminal in question can do for society. It’s about what they have done to others that concerns me.
I think reformation totally has its place in our society. But when it comes to violent crimes that take away life or irreversibly change it by maiming someone, then our focus shouldn’t be reformation but retribution.
But this is my personal opinions and I am only commenting on cases where there is no grey area on the evil nature of the criminal’s actions.
But what happens if the victims (or most of them) are willing to let the past be the past?
In the example I gave this is the case. Out of the 3 people who could call themselves best friends of Cadye, only 1 of them wants to see Crow pay for what Uldren did. And that is Petra. Zavala and Ikora are willing to move on. Even though Ikora wanted Uldren dead.
Bad writing that makes me shake my head in disbelief.
If its real life then I admire them for being a stronger person than I because I don’t think I can be that forgiving.
Why is it that whenever someone provides a counter example to you people it is always “bad writing”? Even when the characters being written are 100% still in character.
Bad writing would be seeing Zavala kill Crow a thousand times for what Uldren did even though Zavala didn’t want to go after Uldren in the first place. He values the lives of the last city before petty revenge.
Ikora wanted Uldren dead and she got her wish. However she is able to look past her anger and recognize that Crow is not Uldren. Despite sharing the same face. There is another character that was once an enemy of the Vanguard but turned a new leaf after an act of mercy. And Ikora allows him and his people to live in the last city forever if they help them deal with a Vex problem (Season of the Splicer).
I am not familiar with the story you are referring. The bullet points you have provided don’t sway me. It comes off as cheap excuses for a character that should have stayed dead but isn’t. Maybe if I sat through it I will have a different opinion. But since I haven’t and I have no intention of playing Destiny 2 I doubt I will change my opinion. Sorry Denona.
An interesting side thought; What would be your thoughts on a criminal who is contained but imprisoned in more of a ‘penal duty’ then actual imprisonment?
I am open to it honestly. But american private prison industrial complex who are effectively making money from slave labor for petty crimes make me uncomfortable.
So I will only accept it in a fantasy setting in very specific set of circumstances and conditions.
I am unable to fully appreciating the story you are telling me in these short paragraphs. I find myself agreeing with Petra.
That is fine but I just want to know why you feel that Zavalas and Ikoras opinions do not matter even though they knew Cayde for far longer than Petra did?
Is it because Petra’s viewpoint lines up with your own? Petra would later regret doing what she did in some weird sense.
Oh yeah, total agreement there; don’t need to go full Cyberdystopia anytime soon.
EDIT: Bringing back to topic, something like Sylvanas being kept by the covenants to pull souls from the maw would work?
(honestly this thread is so long I think something to that effect has already come up once)
You are starting to sound like Lakshmi-2, the secondary antagonist of Season of the splicer and someone who allowed their hatred to be used by Savathun.
https://www.destinypedia.com/Lakshmi-2
Zavala’s and Ikora’s reactions are just as human as Petra’s. During season of the Chosen, Zavala thought he had seen Uldrens face while walking in a garden. Crow was watching the commander since some Cabal Psions were plotting an assassination attempt on him. Crow would later save Zavalas life during the peace treaty meeting between the Vanguard and the newly reformed Cabal Empire at the end of the season. Guess what Zavala did? It wasn’t kill him. It was reaching out his hand to helped him up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4NzMX82p5s - Zavala in the garden.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F-D5SHyEHU - end of season of the chosen
It is a worry when you think blind anger and rage is more human than forgiveness and compassion.
In SotS, Mithrax tells Saint 14 about how the Eliksni (fallen) see him as a monster. All the Fallen wanted to be reunited with the Great Machine. But the Machines new chosen sent the Saint. At the point we start the game, the two sides have been fighting for ages. However Saint 14 is horrified by this and would try to make amends by helping the Falleno of House Light. To the point that when the Vex invaded the last city because of Lakshmi-2, Mithrax told Saint to protect his people (the Vanguard). Saint said that the Eliksni are now also his people.
I agree with this solution.
But I want Tyrande to beat the crap out of her first before throwing her off the ledge to recover every soul she sent down there and bring them back to Azeroth as wisps so Elune could bring them back to life to undo her mistake.
For us in the living world it could have been a few years (one expansion Sylvanas break is badly needed) but for her it could have taken thousands. In that scenario I think she has amended her mistakes but she can never be forgiven for what she has done.
The Horde however is much more complicated… honestly for them just make it so Alliance races will never trust or be fully friendly with Horde races.
Horde players have to prove themselves with a reputation system. Have the Horde leaders turn over the Horde loyalists for Alliance justice and then merge the factions and end these idiotic faction wars.
But in the next expansion I actually want to see Alliance races seem strong and threatening and the Horde be the underdog for a change. I am so tired of being the Horde’s punching bag.
There’s something funny in how casually this is dropping not just names, but multiple levels of history just to make it sound more confusing to an outsider.
EDIT: obviously not on purpose, if that’s how that sounds.