I never said it did.
I only called Ragdor or whatever a misogynist because he is. He’s constantly presenting a mysoginistic attitude.
I want Sylvanas dead because I don’t like her.
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Cool. I thought we’ve already established I have no problem with that.
You, Doness, Smallz, Amendis, no one was talking about you… no one was implying it was you. Stop acting like it was you, it wasn’t.
This disscussion escalated when Ragnor called Akiyass disgusting for talking about sexism towards the NE.
He’s the misogynist. Not you guys.
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Except you are. And the irony is Sylvanas is a warcraft’s character exhibiting more sexist tropes than any other character in the franchise.
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Oh okay. It felt like you were implying that.
Because of toxic writers.
No, I thought we have a good connection. I said it above it was probably missed there’s a lot of anti-Sylvanas people I respect despite disagreement over this character and you are among them. I wouldn’t have this friendship and respect for you if I thought you were remotely mysogynistic, I don’t.
There are randoms who come in who are though.
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But I’m not.
I just call you out on your misandry too and you don’t like that.
Sometimes what you describe you want is female supremacy, not female equality.
It’s why you get so much pushback sometimes. Amonet wasn’t wrong in challenging your PoV, but I was critical how she just tossed aside the value of feminism. There’s a middle ground. I think the main obstacle of getting people to take feminism seriously is showing people it’s not about female supremacy, but equality and does support men’s issues.
I think Amonet has a point, we should also look at these male characters as victims of trauma, it’s not exclusively something female characters face, sometimes the same truama presents in different characters, like Garrosh vs Thrall and them both wanting to “Find home.”
There’s a lot of similarities truama wise between Sylvanas and Gul’dan that I love to explore through meta. I just haven’t found the right place to talk about it due to toxicity towards Sylvanas in general. I don’t think people are open to discussions on Sylvanas meta rn.
I think it’s funny you list Blackhand as one if your favorite characters and Saurfang literally called Sylvanas Blackhand in the Negotiation cinematic. The way you describe who you want Tyrande to be is exactly like Sylvanas… so I think you just want Sylvanas in the form of Tyrande and that just vindicates me so much, you have no idea… so…
…Thank you.
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Oh yey I am not a sexist anymore.
I am so glad the commitee changed their verdict.
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Writing makes a character.
And everything that defines Sylvanas is the manifestation of a sexist trope, since the very beginning.
It is just so odd to me that you try to prop her up like some kind of feminist icon, and talk about sexism whenever people say things negatively about her. It really makes you look like someone who wields feminism like a weapon you don’t know how to use. Using it as a bludgeon to attack people who disagree with you online.
I mean she is “The Sexy Corpse” trope (Yes, this is a real thing). What you see in any crime tv show, where the crime scene has a dead body of a half naked woman, all posed up.
“The Fighting f-toy” Trope, which is whenever a woman is a warrior action hero, they ultimately exist for the male gaze, kicking butt in what is practically a bikini.
“The B—chy boss” A woman who is in charge, but is also a mean and nasty ice queen, because of course we have to villainize women in positions of authority.
Being an SA Allegory as part of a “Dark backstory” is also an incredibly sexist trope. She is basically an undead Red Sonja.
For Night Elves, yes. Because that is how their culture and society is. I feel like a setting with strong world building would includes societies and culture that don’t see eye to eye, which can create conflict in a a story, which is what makes the story interesting.
Such as… A Matriarchal society being allies with a Patriarchal or Egalitarian society. That is not me making a case for matriarchy in the real world lol.
So you missed the point too. It’s not the Trauma itself, it’s how the characters respond to it. Female characters do not get the same degree of development and consideration as the male characters.
Because for Blizzard, women only respond to trauma in two ways, stalwart stoicism and uncorruptable virtue. Or an unhinged, emotional lashout.
But I am not really expecting you to notice that because, as mentioned above, your favorite character exhibits more sexist tropes than TV Sitcoms in the 50s.
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As a recovering sexist I don’t think a character loses any value by being shown attractive or showing skin.
But… oversexualization is different. One of the reasons I have stopped watching 99% of anime is because of their outdated female tropes and oversexualization. Like the lady breaths and her Zcup breasts that exert their own gravitational pull rotate and bounce in 8 directions.
If in your story the goal is to make an icon or virtue signal then I think you are doing a poor job of writing it. Or as a reader if your mission is to find a social/political icon you are also doing it wrong.
Write a good story and the virtues would signal by themselves. Write a good character and people will naturally identify with them.
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I think this would be an interesting topic that you should make. Now is probably a good time to do that.
Virtue signaling does not automatically make a bad story. What can make a story bad is its message being improperly conveyed or most of its readers not understanding the message. Characters in stories are also open to interpretation and over time can be interpreted differently than before. Writers have to know what they’re writing for their story to be portrayed. There has to be a foundation.
I’ll give A Clockwork Orange as an example. I don’t like that story but a lot of people do. It has messages and themes about society that might be considered virtue signaling. The protagonist of that story can be seen as a social/political icon, who despite being an awful person might be someone who some people look up to because of what they think he represents. There might even be able to be comparisons that can be made between Alex DeLarge and Sylvanas Windrunner.
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We never made a verdict at all, you are just kinda annoying just like everyone else here including myself.
Ah yes made clear by her other famous quote “They are like arrows in my quiver. They must be spend if we are to win”.
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I’m not tossing aside the value of feminism, like I said I stand for equality regardless of sex/race/gender. I am pushing back against current day feminists who appear to more misandrists than feminist, not saying all of them are but a lot of the vocal ones seem to be.
Feel free to do so, even though I hate the character I am open to discussing her.
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Yeah, I’m willing to wait until the general dissatisfaction calms down. Maybe around 10.0 after everyone has time to digest 9.2.
Or V in V for Vendetta who is the actual devil could be another literary parallel. That’s actually one of my favorite movies. I’m a huge fan of political dystopia fiction.
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I got that from your agruement with Akiyass and it made it more clear where you were coming from. You made very valid points i’m sorry for calling you a misogynist. I can see clearly now that you are not and your pov is valid.
I see that happening too and I see that it’s creating a huge divide between feminists and the men’s rights movement though I don’t think they are mutually exclusive. I’ve spoken up here against militant feminism and yet I still get accused of it from time to time.
Thanks for bringing your PoV to the table.
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My personal example is Negan from The Walking Dead. He’s done a number of bad things but I still feel like I can relate to him in some ways. He’s like a more realistic version of Vegeta. Even if I don’t like Sylvanas I find parts of her relatable too. People can interpret that however they like, though I think for me it’s that they’re authority figures who are doing what they can for their group to the detriment of others.
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When it comes to “doing evil for the sake of survival” we can all empathize with that but it doesn’t make the bad things these characters have done any less bad, just adds context.
I don’t consider myself an evil person but If the survival of my family was threatened I would fight back. I think it’s against human nature ro just roll over and die when threatened. We are a byproduct of 200,000 years of successful evolution after all.
Sometimes this faction conflict dissolves into two factions simply vying for dominance and survival.
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Have you seen Squid Game? I thought it was interesting how they handled that protagonist’s flaws. I think if it were an American show, that character’s morals probably would’ve been different.