They often do and yeah it’s good to take a break from time to time if that’s what you need.
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Just like your comebacks. That’s fair.
I have no beef with you today.
I am not getting into a toxic mud flinging contest with you. No matter how hard you try.
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It seems like you are trying really hard to get in one though.
Then go and knock yourself out. Hope you have fun.
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Maybe it was a bad idea for Blizzard to base their game precisely on creating tension between two factions of players.
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I’ll fight both of you at the same time.
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The book versions of Khadgar (The last Guardian and Beyond the Dark Portal) he is shown to be neither stern or “non-nonsence”, he was always a more light hearted character, but I will admit he wasn’t as joky as he was in Legion. TLG is before all his trauma, BtDP is after his first trauma and during his second one, the character remained consistent sowing no emotional scaring.
So have women characters. Jaina letting go of her past becoming the leader of the Kul’Tirans (I think Catherine is still the leader but Jaina is fulfilling the active role of leading them), become the mother figure for Anduin.
Oh, which female character became evil because of her trauma (excluding Sylvanas because we have no clue if she is supposed to be perceived as evil or not atm)? Most female villains in WoW get the “I got corrupted” pass for becoming villains, Azshara probably being the only one who actually owns it.
Jaina seeing the orc slave pens, seeing the misery they were living in, seeing them as people as opposed to monsters let her to believe in a future of co-existence. Sacrificing her father for a one in a million shot of that peace, only to see all her hard work, her city and people destroyed by the very same people, no not people, monsters that she was trying to make peace with. She became angry and when the anger subsided she remembered… her father, what had she done ? Was she the monster… Yeah your right its very cut and dry.
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Kay, thanks I will have fun.
I have an older sibling, I can petty argue all day if you want.
I think that is up to interpretation. I don’t recall Khadgar being as light-hearted as he was in WoD and Legion. Nor as eccentric. Outland certainly did a number on his mind, regardless if you want to acknowledge it.
But that has nothing to do with Theramore. Blizzard made a point to define Jaina around Theramore, doing a complete 180 from the Alliances greatest advocate for peace, to one who was more than willing to destroy the Horde’s most populous city.
Her sentiment for the Horde did not change despite being talked down from Genocide. She became one of the Alliance’s LEAST cooperative characters, who repeated advocated for Horde suppression.
Then, in BFA, when Jaina was proven right about the Horde all these years, she does another heel turn in the other direction. There is no natural progression there. It’s “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned” into… character “development” for the sake of narrative convivence.
Jaina, Tyrande, Maiev, Vanessa Van Cleef, Sylvanas… I mean, already there is almost the entire female representation for playable race leadership.
Jaina is really the perfect example of the problem. She was a perfect matron. No flaws, virtuous to the extreme. Will let her own father die before doing anything to compromise her virtue and purity.
Then the complete heel turn. There is no complexity. And it gives off the feeling like… If women aren’t pure, virtuous beings, then they must be wicked and conniving, emotionally vindictive and wrathful.
And given the kind of activities Blizzard was up to when these stories were being written… That sentiment makes a lot of sense in a rather haunting and disturbing way.
Let’s leave it at that regarding Khadgar as we have no proof to either claims. It could be because of emotional trauma or it could be because Blizzard wanted to lighten up the character for marketability (not the first time that happened). But yes he wasn’t as eccentric in the books, he did crack a few jokes but not at the speed he was in WoD and Legion.
It started with Theramore where her peacekeeper persona showed first cracks, believing it was only Garrosh. The BE betraying her was her proof for “The whole horde is evil”.
I got the exact opposite vibe from her in BfA, after her “soul trip” she started to become inconsistent, wanting to raid Zuldazar but not wanting to kill !!!? It was a very strange middle ground on behalf of the writers, however everything leading up to the soul trip was excellent and was more character progression than most WoW characters ever get.
I never considered her evil, but I’m an Alliance main so maybe for Horde mains idk.
How is she evil?
She became evil because she got bored, it’s not because of the torture. Achieving your goal is not trauma.
Fair. Forgot she existed honestly, they need to do more with her.
“Got corrupted” pass card.
I don’t get what you want at this point. Jainas arc was one of the best things to happen in recent WoW. We still have female soulful saints. Letting Jaina be pure would only have driven you to use her as an example of “no character development for women”.
It was not a complete heel turn. She wanted to destroy the Horde, the enemy of the Alliance. If that is considered a heel turn than 99% of the characters are villains for wanting to destroy the other faction. Hell Velen is a villain for wanting to destroy the Legion by that logic.
Truth of the matter is that none of the WoW characters are that complex, every “complexity” we can extrapolate is purely fan driven. Example just in this discussion we touched on the theory that Khadgar might have emotional scaring from his time in outland resulting in him telling jokes, this is something that will never be explored officially in the game or books. It’s exactly the same for female characters, you might fail to see emotional depth in character while someone else can, Renautus is a perfect example of this because her reading of Sylvanas’ character led her to believe that Sylvie cherished the idea of immortality. The best parts of the WoW story now are 99% fan made and not Blizzard made.
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But that had nothing to do with her story in KT or her relationship with Anduin.
Again, no it wasn’t.
She did a complete heelturn after Theramore. There was no complexity to it, it was -Bad thing happened. -Character hates people responsible for bad thing. -Character willing to commit genocide because bad thing happened.
Jaina went from sexist trope A to sexist trope B. Being victimized, her reasoning being led by emotion, and vilification of the character for the desire for deserved retribution.
Talk to more Horde players
talk to more Horde players
like Jaina she was vilified for wanting deserved retribution. And Blizzard has a vesting interest in ensuring that women remain silent about their trauma.
What are you talking about?
It’s not one or another, it should be more nuanced and complex than that. The fact that you are framing it as an either-or thing shows that you have sexist perceptions of female characters yourself.
She let her own father die to avoid the destruction of the Horde.
At this point, I think you are just making excuses. You are too concerned with being right and not actually listening.
What does Anduin have to do with anything. She worked hard to secure peace, Garrosh destroyed her home so she wanted to kill him, then the Blood elves betrayed her and she realized that the whole horde is evil. If anything would make someone do a 180, that would be it. Kul’tiras was a continuation of that story, she still hated the horde, but she also hated herself for sacrificing her father for an impossible dream.
I ask again, is it a heel turn if character from faction A wants to destroy faction B. In witch case we alliance players should consider Vol’jin and Cairne as villains.,while Horde players have dibs on Malfurion, The coucil of Three Hammers, Gelbin etc.
And which character in WoW is more complex than that?
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You literally mentioned Anduin first.
I feel like having your father murdered would also inspire a 180 in character motivation, but it didnt. Because Jaina is being written with sexist tropes in mind, not as a person experiencing and being shaped by the conditions of the world around her.
Kul Tiras had nothing to do with that story. It did nothing for her development.
When that character has a history of opposing conflict with the opposite faction, yes.
Literally any male character lol. Now you are just having me explain things to you that I have already explained.
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Basically
“Everyone who disagrees with me is a misogynist”
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Yes because Jaina has an parent like relationship with Anduin and I used that as an example of how she grew as a character, however Anduin has nothing to do with her motivations or feelings regarding the Horde.
Her father being killed was not a reason for a 180 because he was in direct opposition to her goals, she wanted peace while Daelin wanted war, she still loved him but realized that this was the sacrifice she had to pay for her goals. The Horde directly destroyed her goals by nuking her city and later betraying her. Her realizing that she sacrificed her father for nothing was the cherry on top. There is nothing sexist about this and it would have had the same emotional value and effect if Jaina was a man.
Examples please.
You haven’t explained anything, you keep contradicting yourself or making arbitrary excuses for why something is sexist because the character it happened to is a women, but when I give an example of something equally bad happening to a man you just say “that’s more complex”. You have failed to showcase how that is more complex whit actual facts and not theorycrafting.
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I’ve been thinking on the aspect of Sylvanas and Tyrande as representation of female roles in societies. While Tyrande certainly has set up a matriarchal society, Sylvanas really hasn’t, nor even came from one.
Quel’Thalas was not and is not a matriarchal society. We have never even heard of a Sunstider queen, only the kings and prince. And even without royalty, Quel’Thalas is being run be a lord and his two male friends. Reflectively, while Sylvanas took the mantle of the Banshee Queen, Sylvanas did not set up the Forsaken as a matriarchal society. Sylvanas’ government structure is basically comprised of men. Her right hand men were Varimathras and Nathanos. The Royal Apothecary Society is overwhelmingly men. Where there certainly the Dark Rangers, Dark Ranger Velonara that seemingly now leads the Dark Rangers that stayed with the Horde after Sylvanas abandoned them had stated that Sylvanas had damned the Dark Ranger’s souls into her service when she brought them back from the dead.
While Tyrande does not want to be queen, and even fears becoming the way Azshara ruled the Kaldorei Empire, Tyrande did reform the Sisterhood of Elune to help lead the Night Elves after the Sundering, and established the Sentinels as their military force. And some of Tyrande’s closest allies in leadership are women, whether lifelong like Ysera or most recently in Queen Mia. Even after all their history of violence and conflict, Tyrande still even appointed Maiev to lead the Army of the Black Moon and in doing so brought the Wardens back in among the Night Elves’ people.
Whereas Tyrande pushed Malfurion to help her co-lead the Night Elves again once they were married, Tyrande was the one that shared her position of strength with far more women in her society, while Sylvanas back in her pursuit of her blight allowed men to lobotomize and dominate a woman, poison another woman looking for help, and even test the final blight on a young girl.
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I don’t expect you to understand the microaggressions women experience here daily.
She literally came after me for posting a quote about strong women.
I honestly didn’t think the quote was offensive until Amonet reacted offended by feminism.
If you are not for equal rights then what are you for?
There are people here with really misogynistic attitudes, that’s just a fact. Incels, redpillers, etc. We’ve had this convo before Denona.
The GD is filled with people like that everyday. This game is misogynistic, this forum is misogynistic. Wake up.
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She has always been a mother like figure to him, that’s not development, that’s just default and nothing to do with anything.
It doesn’t matter. Watching your father being murdered is a traumatic event. But Jaina was fulfilling the stoic woman of virtue trope on that moment.
Earlier in the conversation, I detailed the development of several male characters. Did you forget?
Well we know that the first king was Dath’Remar Sunstrider because he was the leader of elves who splintered of after the invasion. To my knowledge Kael’Thas does not have siblings and was the sole hair to the trone, why Anesterian became king is a mystery, was it because he was the first/only hair or was it because it was a patriarchy. However I found out something interesting, Anasterian ruled for ~2800 years, if we take that into account and use it as an average for how long a blood elf king rules that would mean that there were only 3-4 BE rulers before Kael’Thas, and seeing the slow reproduction capabilities of belves (living for thousands of years but only having 1-4 children) it is safe to assume that it is possible no female was first in line.
Tyrande didn’t set it up that way, that was Azshara and it carried over to the night elves.
Sylvanas did not set up a structure for succession at all, as we are seeing right now the forsaken do not have a leader. Again safe to say she made it so she and she alone can rule.
And you did not provide any objective facts as to how those developments are better or more complex than womens. You feel that male characters are more/better developed than women characters, ok fine you do you, but have you ever considered that someone can fine women characters more developed than male ones. You are chasing a boogeyman at this point.
It absolutely does matter, she chose to make that sacrifice and she did try to convince her father to lay down his arms and choose peace before that. I imagine listening to daddy and abandoning your goals and ideals is not a sexist trope then.
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