You have to be smart to be subtle. Blizzard usually isn’t that smart. To say it’s too subtle for the playerbase is to call them stupid.
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Particularly when you expect them to fill in the pieces with their own headcanons.
Blizzard has consistently gone from A to C while leaving the players to figure out B. Which is just bad writing. And the Argus reveal is the biggest example out of all of them.
Like Zovaal took massive gambles with events he had no influence nor control over to get Argus to die. If the narrative had it where he had other plans in the works to get that same end result then it would be fine. It shows that he always had a way to get Argus killed. The way it actually happened was just blind luck. but in a good way. However the story doesn’t seem to be hinting nor explaining anything of that sort.
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You can pretty reliably map a person’s opinion of streamers or youtubers onto how much they cheerlead or doomsay WoW/Blizzard. Basically, everyone I disagree with is a shill or outrage farmer.
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That might be true. I think Taliesin is a shill and Asmongold an outrage farmer.
Not so much delusions but actual facts.
I mean I made what, two long posts addressing the numerous ways the reveal does not work so far in this thread since it shifted towards the reveal. Yet you ignored those and just focused on things that didn’t really matter to the actual content of the post. Even now you still are avoiding the problems. You claim that you have had criticisms with the Argus reveal but there is nothing in your post history that demonstrates that. If that was the case you would actually acknowledge the points I have made. But you haven’t.
Blizzard could’ve have easily prevented a lot of these problems by showcasing that Zovaal did have a plan to get Argus killed one way or the other. But we haven’t seen any of that. So it makes it appear that the way it unfolded in the story is the way Zovaal wanted, nay expected it to go. Which is just stupid beyond reasoning.
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I have criticized it in this very thread, in my answer to you bringing up Argus :
That is not really criticisms of the Argus reveal itself. Since that can be applied to anything lately with WoW. Plus your criticisms come from Blizzard not placing in more obvious foreshadowing. Not how the actual reveal comes off contrived and convoluted.
How come you have continued to ignore actual problems with the story? Events that Zovaal had no control over just happened to go his way. Surely a smart guy like the Jailer would have influenced those events to go the way they did either directly or indirectly. Regardless if he is meant to be this “mastermind” or not. However that is not the case. Things just happened to fall into his lap like candy.
It is fine when a villain takes opportunities as they come. But if it is something as big as corrupting a titan soul with death magic so it knocks out the robot born from your own anima. Thereby making it so every soul goes to your domain. You would think he would be more involved then just having his Dreadlords corrupt the titan (still no explanation about how they actually achieved that). Particularly when some of his secondary schemes, like the Lich King would go against what he wants if they actually succeeded. Or forces outside of his control succeed in their schemes. Such as what would Zovaal do if Sargeras succeeded in corrupting Azeroth?
Something as simple as Zovaal having a plan to get Argus killed other than the way it actually went down would’ve aided this whole mess. It will change him from being extremely lucky beyond any mathematical means to just being lucky in a good way. Sometimes things just go your way even if you haven’t planned it. But the story doesn’t paint it as one of those scenarios. It paints those events as exactly as Zovaal wanted them to go.
The Argus reveal is bad writing plain and simple. Foreshadowing something doesn’t make it good automatically. It has to work with the story. You can set something up but if you have to go through multiple logical hurdles and intentionally ignore plot holes / plot inconsistences to get there it is not good writing. And no sane person will think that it is.
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I’ll admit that I’ve been consistently wrong about my speculations for what would happen in Shadowlands. That has been because I’ve assumed the revelations and answers to events would be more interesting than what we’ve been given. Instead they have been the most obvious answers you can think of. The writers have intentionally made these situations mysterious enough to speculate over, but it turns out to not be worth it because the answers don’t come out to be anything unexpected. Which makes me wonder if it’s a purposeful narrative tactic.
It’s similar to JJ Abrams Mystery Box style that’s been used in movies and shows such as Lost. Except that Blizzard knows the answers, just that they’re all basic and lazy. They don’t give us proper explanations for these though, just more events to speculate over long enough to keep us wondering about them. It’s like a murder mystery making it very obvious who the killer is almost to the point of showing them doing the killing outright, then revealing the killer but not having there be an explanation for how the killer was able to do the murder and hide themselves. Might as well give these answers immediately and have what would’ve been the reveal be the explanation instead.
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Honestly at this point it is too late to voice these concerns. Blizzard will just ignore them because they think they know better. Meanwhile those who think they were smart enough to notice the twists, but not smart enough to see how it simply does not work for what they wanted to achieve will continue to think it was the best thing ever since sliced bread. If their only criticism of these kind of reveals is, “Blizzard could’ve done a better job with making their foreshadowing more obvious” then they are lost beyond reason. They will continue to say that the reveal is the best thing ever because they put the pieces together. Everyone else is too stupid for not doing so. Meanwhile they ignore the glaring and obvious problems with the reveal. They just ignore the logical hurdles or the plot holes that needed to be ignored to achieve that end result.
Foreshadowing something is pointless if it does not fit in the story.
I’ve seen some writers actually insult those who point of the plot holes. Regardless of how they pointed them out.
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That is such a gross oversimplification and you know it, Denona!!!
Blizzard goes from A to Z, says G to M will be revealed in a novel that doesn’t reveal anything, handwave X to Z in a tweet on someone’s personal twitter and call players demanding the rest of the alphabet as “toxic” in a livestream.
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It’s worth mentioning because we know the signs now and can be mindful of them if they appear in the next expansion. It’s not to complain to Blizzard, it’s to inform players. These aren’t twists, Blizzard has just tried to make them seem that way. We’ve been put on the edge of our seats when the answers have already been in front of us. If the obvious answer to you seems illogical, then you probably shouldn’t get your hopes up in getting a solid explanation because the time that should be spent explaining will be used to reveal the obvious instead.
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Exactly. The whole point of foreshadowing is to allow the audience the opportunity to follow along and even get ahead of the plot. They can work out for themselves where the story is going and HOW. Ultimately what conclusion the audience comes to should be the same or at least similar to the stories conclusion. Not just in the reveal but also the who, what, where, why and how. The how is the biggest problem with Blizzard. Either because they are lazy or they don’t plan things ahead as much as they want to. If the audience has to piece together the how with nothing to compare it to, the foreshadowing falls flat and it is just bad writing.
Just because something is foreshadowed doesn’t make it good. The audience should be rewarded for getting it right in all 5 of those important aspects of a good mystery. The Who, what, where, how and why. Otherwise they will feel unsatisfied with the end result. And those that think they are satisfied are just giving the author(s) a free ticket to repeat it again and again. Basically allowing them to get away with bad writing. All because they can feel smarter than everyone else.
Also there is nothing wrong with the obvious answer being the obvious answer. Clever writers will still make it feel unexpected or they simply acknowledge that it is the obvious answer and focus on something more character driven. An episode of Mystery Incorporated did this. Velma gets angry at the rest of the gang because they appear to not be interested in the actual mystery due to something else. In truth they knew it was the obvious answer and that is why they were interested in something else. Because there was no fun in something when it is extremely obvious. There is no mystery to be solved. No clues to gather, no traps to set up (which is a big deal to this shows take on Fred), no grand reveal. Velma being a more logic driven character failed to notice that. Fred and shaggy even at times try to dismiss Velma’s “theory” because they prefer the villain to be someone less obvious. As it is more fun that way.
The problem with Blizzard is that they focus too much on the hype. Instead of making the obvious answer be impactful. They did it with Vol’jin and becoming Warchief in MoP. Teldrassil and the burning in BFA.
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This is more acceptable in a medium where the answer is given in a timely manner. Having obvious answers be given after having to wait months at a time shouldn’t be acceptable. How long has the time gap been between the cinematic of the Arbiter being shutdown and us finding out that Argus did it, atleast a year? That’s frustrating. What should’ve happened is that the red orb should’ve looked like Argus and the NPCs should’ve said it was him, then explain in 9.2 how it was him.
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I’ve watched some T&E content, it looks like you’ve seen more than I have.
I’ll check it out, because T&E have definitely got a major copium addiction with Blizz. I’ll compare the two on that front.
What you said made me realize something. The sad part I think is that both Taliesin and Bellular have contacts in Blizzard, yet they - especially the latter - keep resorting to clickbait and their own headcanon (especially Bellular).
You’re spot on, and not just with those moments you cited. They also did it with Grom getting off scot-free for the Iron Horde in WoD. They did it with Vol’jin’s death, Jaina going AWOL, Sylvanas becoming Warchief and everything about Illidan and Xe’ra’s first and last interaction in Legion. In BfA they did with the Mag’har recruitment scenario, Sylvanas’ deal with Azshara (remember that part of BfA?) and how easily N’Zoth was defeated.
Steve told us that Sylvanas story started during Edge of night for no apparent reason. Afrasiabi sabotaged BFA Sylvanas and then he went and sabotaged her from Cataclysm till BFA? Doesn’t make a lot of sense.
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Because he really thought he could redirect the pathological imagination of a serial abuser into a functional story
When no, if your story makes a three fold survivor into WoW German Fascist Round 2 and ties her Faustian Pact to her An Hero attempt, you cannot salvage such a story
It’s pure unrelenting creative hubris attempting to tackle multiple delicate themes (Genocide Survival, S Survival, SA Allegory)
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Maybe but if you double down on something you are an accomplisher. You certainly remember what happened here when he mentioned Edge of night and now he went further back to pre vanilla era. Maybe BFA Sylvanas is Afrasiabi sabotage but making BFA Sylvanas the only Sylvanas in WoW is the current teams job. I can’t tell if they say the truth but the path they chose suggests that they don’t.
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This is bigotry, you are no longer attacking the character, but the people who like this character.
Sylvanas is just a character. Liking her says absolutely nothing about irl feminist affiliations. There are a lot of women and men who find Sylvanas empowering, and that says nothing about them irl other than they have good taste in fictional characters. Also the whole “she only ever lost to men” comment and the implication that victims of SA are ‘weak’ or ‘enslaved to victimhood’ by being overpowered by men is gross, . It’s also victim blaming. I guess by your definition neither Tyrande nor Maiev is an empowering female character either because both have experienced being defeated by men. (clearly this reasoning is wrong if it also makes your favorite characters "weak’ female characters, which begs me to ask, is there any female wow characters who haven’t experienced defeat by a man? are there any who can say inequivically that they haven’t experieinced a man trying to downplay or diffuse them? I’ll wait.
You both hate women/feminists in compeletly different ways. Both of you are suggesting there’s a right way and a wrong way to find feminine empowerment. Both of you are equally toxic and wrong. The former in thinking in terms of female supremacy and the later who is a puritanical nutcase.
The fact that both of you think you can say this on a public forum and not get pushback is a bit injudicious considering the circumstances behind this story that was just revealed. Sylvanas fans are also victims of Afrasabi’s schemes and her character assassination.
Do either of you care at all about the other real players behind the screen? The ones you are casually making the worst judgements about? this is a rehtorical question because I know you both actually don’t care about anyone but yourselves. You two deserve eachother you are both radicalzed in different ways, but both still radicalized.
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I found this T&E take the most unbiased take so far.
I like the part where Taliesin speculated that it was not Afrasabi’s intention to destroy Sylvanas in a sexist vendetta he had against the playerbase. That was at least a relief to know. He does defend the story arc a bit which is great, because although I have mixed feelings about the Burning of Teldrassil, narratively it was an exciting story that really engaged me as a player and was the reason I became reinvested in lore and this game. So it did accomplish that and from a purely narrative perspective it was interesting. But they did point out the challenges of creating a huge story and not knowing where to go with it, which seemed to be the problem with Sylvanas’s arc since then. There was nothing wrong with villifying Sylvanas, the problem was that they didn’t know where they were going with this story and were making it up as they wen’t along, sometimes at the expense of character continuity, which I noticed long before this news came out.
I think the current creative team could have handled this mess of a story much better, I have formulated multiple speculations on where this story could have gone if they allowed it to play out so the writers were never backed into as much of a corner as it seems they were. I understand where they are coming from, not wanting to pick up the pieces Afrasabi left, and that it would be fair to just end Shadowlands here and move beyond it, I can get behind that.
It feels like the fanbase that this news severely impacted, The Sylvanas fans, don’t actually have a community seat at the table to talk about how this new development changed the context of the character, and I’m still struggling to deal with that change, but like Taliesin says, this is a new start to really see what Danuser’s team has to offer and the promise of a closed chapter may be enough to forgive and forget and move on.
I am excited and hopeful about the future of Sylvanas’s story now that she is out of Afrasabi’s clumsy hands. But I’m still apprehensive because I have no idea what Danuser and his team are capable of or if I even like what he has to offer, I’m not even sure if I will like this new version of Sylvanas because I liked the old one. The only thing my opinion currently hinges on is Robert Brook’s exit tweet about how he believes the WoW story is now good hands when it comes to progressive writing.
But as this thread proves, outrage culture is the core of these forums. If these forums were positive T&E wouldn’t have ample examples for thier s-show segment so keep giving them fodder to laugh at you guys, they love it.
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I think 9.2 is dansauer and co trying to well, salvage sylvanas and get her close to how everyone but afrsiabe envisioned her.
We’ll see how it plays out, I’m not exactly thrilled for 9.2 myself other than seeing how the whole sylvanas arc plays out
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