It’s possible for both to be true at the same time 
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Eh, I think the community needs to take a look at itself, and consider what sort of community it is. Because there are alot of different folks in it. I don’t take it is as a hit on the community as a whole - just a portion.
Did you watch that video? If it is the same one I watched… Talieson said the opposite.
He said the Jailer didn’t have to be brilliant, because he had alot of irons in the fire, and a lot of time. That the Jailer had to be patient and go with events, more than plan and form the events himself - and I agree with his take. Especially when Talieson mentions the force of Death as eventual, and “a matter of time”.
T has been very critical of the corporate side. I get bored when he starts to rant about it - because when I watch T and E, I want to watch WoW stuff, not hear some corporate opinion piece. But he is critical.
It is one reason I like T and E. They seem like they want to understand Blizzard’s actions, not just lambaste them.
And that’s ok.
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Purely conjecture with zero evidence to back it up.
This is what the guy does take the little drips danuser feeds us and then make an hour long video about it to construct all the missing links like they were always there in the first place.
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I think it gives some excuse. Not a total pass. But I don’t see anybody on this thread giving SL a total pass.
Dude, he complained about a LOT of stuff before this year. I always thought he had a good balance between praise and criticism. Did you not actually watch his videos?
I mean, it’s cool to not like his style or whatever. I just really don’t get why you’d call him a shill or a copium huffer.
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Zovaal sat around in the maw for a long time, while stuff was happening in the universe, and he had tons of time for things to break his way. He didn’t have to be a master-mind 4D plotter. He just had to wait - and he had nothing but time.
It doesn’t mean Zovaal planned everything in one night, and let it unfurl. It means he used events over a long period of time to his advantage.
There is evidence. And his opinion is as much conjecture as the complaints about Zovaal being too “big brained”. You act as if we found a plan in Zovaal’s hand writing that spells out everything from the Legion’s conquest of Argus to Sylvanas.
It makes more sense to me that he just went with events, over time.
Your criticism doesn’t track with… your criticism.
On the one hand, you criticize him for saying everything is there, but then you criticize him for acknowledging Blizzard didn’t show it properly… when he is holding them accountable.
Talieson mentions that it is there, but not there enough to clear confusion. That seems like a fair statement to me.
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Ok. Sure. Thats a very cool theory. Do you have any evidence that this is what happened?
A single statement? A clue? Nope I don’t think so.
Then please… provide it! Because in that entire video T never did.
Firstly I said he passes it off as something that was always there. Not that it actually is.
And showing it properly doesn’t mean that there was nothing to show… according to him.
He says its there if we look hard enough.
But a general audience thats just consuming the story normally might miss it.
The issue is there is nothing to miss. Its just not there for anyone to see.
Ok.
Where?
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You need evidence that the Jailer was trapped in the maw? And that events happened outside of the Maw while he was in there?
That’s basically the current expansion.
Maybe you only play classic… idk… but anyone who plays Shadowlands should know the Jailer was trapped by the other Eternals.
That isnt conjecture. That is the lore. If you want evidence, play the game.
I mean, if some people in this community need evidence that the Jailer was imprisoned… that shows that some in this community won’t even see what is clearly there.
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No I need the evidence that the Jailer or one his minions literally say or clue us in that there was no master plan but many hundreds and thousands of plans and now we see the result of a few of them working out.
Thats the theory. So… show it to me.
Show me where in the story the Jailer was presented this way.
For the past couple of posts we have been talking about the theory how the Jailer did not have ONE master plan but thousands. Maybe tens of thousands and he just waited to see what worked out.
Thats the theory. Thats what his video was about.
Thats what we are talking about.
Do you have trouble following the conversation?
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The fact that he had a few failed lich kings who didn’t do his will is evidence that it wasn’t all some plan of his. He had to keep dealing with events.
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Show me where the story framed the Jailer as a person who had thousands upon thousands of plans and he was just waiting to see what fruits came out of all his seed planting.
I am still waiting. Where. is. the. evidence?
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They didn’t burn bridges with him until he abused an exploit in game and streamed himself doing it.
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Again, you misunderstand the video :
That wasn’t in the video at all. The video wasn’t about Zovaal being brilliant and making ancient plans that are coming to fruition - it was suggesting he was dealing with events as they unfold.
He could have had 0 plans initially, and just used events to his advantage, and plotted.
That is your misinterpretation. It didn’t have to be even one plan, just a goal - getting out. And working with events to make it happen.
I just pointed out the failed Lich Kings as evidence of how he didn’t plan every event, but he used those events to his advantage. The Lich King would not obey him - so he worked with events, and acquired an agent in Sylvanas, after she threw herself off Icecrown.
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First I hear about this. Honestly I don’t follow these streamers much but early on in BFA I started watching them because the game and story really started to confuse me.
Took me a year to start smelling the BS.
Belluar took me like 3 months though. So much clickbait. So little content.
Where is the evidence this is the case?
Where is the evidence this is the case?
Where is the evidence that this is the case?
I don’t care about what Taelisn IMAGINES as a more LIKELY explanation for all this crap.
I want to see what actual EVIDENCE. Like… a single line of dialogue that the story is being framed this way.
Show me. Where? Where is it?
It is in the lore. In the game.
They are called failed lich kings because they didn’t do what Zovaal had commanded. It was one of the things he tried, and it didn’t work how he thought, so he went with events.
That goes to show he wasn’t some brilliant master mind who had all bases covered - he was going with events.
He didn’t call them “successful lich kings who did everything according to my brilliant plans!” He called them failures.
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Then show me explicitly where.
Thats not evidence for thousands upon thousands for millions of years that he put in place to take opportunistic advantage of if they were ever realized.
No it just goes to show Azeroth and its characters are super duper special.
Because its also the same planet that the demons failed to capture, despite having zero problem conquering every other world.
Just because something apparently “failed” is not evidence of a meticulous planner who has thousands upon thousands of plans that are on going.
What you are doing is called conjecture. Thats what Taelisn did.
Thats what I said in my very first post.
Your conjecture is because the lich kings were a failed plan that means the Jailer has been sitting in the maw for millions of years been constantly making plans waited and saw what worked out and then make some more plans.
Either show actual proof or admit you have no actual evidence for this theory.
T&E are relentlessly positive—I couldn’t stomach their shows during BfA for that reason—but I don’t think it’s cynically calculated. I think they are just easy to please, especially if they get a lot of Jaina and Anduin, which BfA delivered on.
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This “reason” of yours as to why they included the failed lich kings is merely your conjecture - you think it “just goes to show” something about Azeroth- while it clearly proves that the Jailer has to work with events as they play out. And Nerzhul wasn’t from Azeroth. He didn’t have a Heart of Azeroth, like we do.
Your conjecture is that the mention of their failure is simply to point out how special Azeroth is, but that is already stated many times, even in the Maw intro.
However, I am not offering conjecture. I am offering facts. Zovaal calls them failures because they did not obey. So he worked with events, and got Sylvanas to do his work later on.
That is simply the facts of the lore.
I just did. You fail to grasp it… and that’s OK.
People such as yourself will deny evidence right in front of your face - like Zovaal calling the Lich Kings failures.
You asked for proof that Zovaal was working with events, and I showed you a clear example.
You then make conjecture about “why” it was included - to show Azeroth as super? But your conjecture about the reasons do not erase the facts :
Zovaal did not meticulously plan every detail with 100% accuracy,. He took events as they came and worked with them. As I proved, with his failed Lich Kings.
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You been around long to know that when people ask for evidence they’re really just looking for ways to twist it to fit their idea of the lore or ignore said evidence when it’s inconvient
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Lol you didn’t.
“All you have there are a couple of failed lich kings” Thats it. Thats all you have and now you have crafted this fantastical claim that the Jailer has been spinning plans for millions of years and independently of each other more plans spring forth.
I have asked you several times to provide evidence that this indeed the fact. That this is how blizzard wanted to present the jailer but failed to do so.
So far you have nothing but conjecture of two failed lich kings.
If the Legion failed with us. If the Old gods failed with us. if the elemental lords failed with us.
Why is the Jailers failures any different from theirs? Why does their failure stand as just a failure of just another plan but Jailer’s failure is the evidence of a much more sinister and grand epic tale of thousands and thousands of plans culminating since reality was created?
Its not a reason. Its evidence. Azeroth is special and always something crazy happens… like Azeroth heroes not only beat back a legion invasion but also invade the legion back.
How many other worlds accomplished this? We are special, apparently, as evidenced by our many actions.
We do special things. Therefore we are special. Its pretty simple.
What you have to show is the WRITERS planned to present us a villain character who has been blindly making plans and waiting to see what worked out and then make new plans.
Where is the evidence for this specific character presentation? Where do we see it? I have been asking for the past hour and all I got was “Well he mentioned the lichkings failed”
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He seems correct. If the Jailer is single handedly responsible for The Burning Legion, and facilitated Sargeras using Argus as a way to bypass the Shadowlands, this goes as far back as Azeroth’s inception.
Which we see proven in the Jailer’s fight when we fight an image of Argus.